ATC Install Problems in Shadow

[BlueShadow]

I Pulled an ATC system from a 1986 NewYorker and am attempting to install it into a 1994 Shadow. I have two substantial problems so far...

1. The blend door actuator (servo motor thingey under the dash) does not quite match the heater box. I was under the impression that all the hvac boxes are the same, this one indeed looks the same as the one in the Yorker and fsm, it has the two mounting points, but they are about 1/4inch and 3/4inch out of alignment??? Further, the shaft seems to be 90 degrees out from what the range on the motor should be - however I think I might have worked around the shaft situation by monkeying around with servo itself. I can of course attach it somehow, but maybe there is a reason I am having trouble?

2. The blower stays on high no matter the fan setting, even with the system turned off. The fsm suggests unplugging the 2 wire connector from the Power module, doing so stopped the blower. This apparently means the power module is bad. I assume the transistor could just be replaced? Anyone done this or have better ideas of where to start?

Thanks for the help, if I am missing info here, please let me know

[BlueShadow]

No one?
I'm wondering if maybe since the car is a 94 it is actually a slightly different box then the early cars. It had the power module marking on it, as well as screw holes, but maybe its the same box as was used in the imperials of the same era? That might explain the servo motor mount differences?

The car is currently somewhat apart and any input would be appreciated as it will help me decide what to do.

[BadAssPerformance]

I think your guess is right, the boxes might be plumbed differetnly?

[BlueShadow]

I was able to resolve the fan issue... the controller is from an 87 or 88, the power module from an 86, just had to ground an extra wire.
Would still be interested to know if anyone has any experience with why the servo doesn't fit as well as it should?

[TopDollar69]

The boxes, and complete systems changed in 91 on the C body and Y body cars. It's safe to bet they changed on the P body cars as well. I can take a picture of the extra 91-93 style blend door motor I have to see if the mounts on that match up to your heater box mounts. It might be easiest to put an early style heater box in your shadow if you want to use the parts that you have. Otherwise I would strip the system from a 91-93 NewYorker, 5th Ave, or Imperial. I've had both, and I can say the 91-93 style is much better.

[BlueShadow]

Well, the later ones used electrical actuators instead of a vacuum module which would mean pulling the dash to change the box, I had thought of this but at least nixed the idea for now - however being the newer ones had sun sensors and coolant temp lockout, they might act more intelligently.

So the AC output had been malfunctioning, so I soldered a couple wires on the bottom side of the board to a 4n33 and now have the AC output working again, and the code for it is gone.
Still have code 2. It will run its full test (takes at least a minute or so) and I can feel the air change in temp so the door is moving. When I change the temp on the panel the motor is actually turning and giving me different temperatures. So I am wondering why I'm getting this error code? I can live with it since the system seems to work regardless, but Id rather it be rite.

Thanks

[zin]

This is one of those projects I've often thought about doing, but never allowed for the time to figure it out... Glad to see someone actually do it!

I'm curious about the Power Module side of things, why is it even involved, seems like ATC would be strictly an under the dash affair, but apparently that's what I get for doing my own thinking!

IMHO, this is worthy of a KC article, if only to let folks know some of the pitfalls and how to avoid them.

Mike

[TopDollar69]

I should have taken more pictures when I put the 88-89 style system in my 84 Laser but I was really rushed for time. I also had the 91-93 style system in my old 93 Imperial and it was broken when I bought the car so I had lots of fun playing around with that before I got it fixed. Here is a picture of the 86-89 style blend door motor compared to the 91-93 style.

[BlueShadow]

Whops, should refresh before editing my last post. Ill reiterate what I edited above...

Fixed the AC output with some electronic modifications as mentioned above...
The blend door is actually working, giving me hot and cold air, however I still get error code 02 ?

Thanks for the pictures TopDollar69. The screw spacing on the newer one looks like what was on my box. I think its only a 4 pin vs 5 pin connector, is that rite?
If so, I wonder if they are actually different electrically. The old one had Motor+/- and Sensor+/- and IgnitionFeed. I'm not sure why it would need an ignition feed anyway since the motor should be powered from its own wires...

[BlueShadow]

I'm curious about the Power Module side of things, why is it even involved, seems like ATC would be strictly an under the dash affair, but apparently that's what I get for doing my own thinking!

The power module is needed to drive the fan motor. On the conventional systems a high power resistor is used, but the ATC systems use a high power transistor (mosfet?) to control the fan via pulse width modulated signals from the control panel. This has to be a separate module since it dissipates a huge amount of heat, requiring the heat sink and being mounted in the path of moving air. In the 90s cars the power module was by itself, in the 80s cars the vacuum module was required and attached to it.
The vacuum module is just a bunch of vacuum line solenoids to drive the various actuators, it also had a relay for ac and fan motor in 86-87, although from what I see, they were likely eliminated in 88-89.
At least this is what I have found out from this project so far

IMHO, this is worthy of a KC article, if only to let folks know some of the pitfalls and how to avoid them.

I totally agree. With the various year changes that I have had to find out from reading the wiring diagrams/service manuals of all the different years, it would have saved my time for sure.
I wouldn't be opposed to writing one or helping write one, however I am certainly not as knowledgeable as some in this area...

[TopDollar69]

Yes the connector on the 91-93 motor has one pin missing in the connector, and it's a slightly different shape, but almost the same. When swapping I would try to stick with the 88-89 system since the parts are the most plentiful in salvage yards. It seems like most of the 88-90 C body New Yorkers got the systems and there are still tons of them in the junk yards unlike the 86-88 E class New Yorker or the 87-89 J body Lebarons.

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:51 PM ----------

Also I could probably help with the writeup. I have a complete 88-89 style system removed from a car, along with all the wiring harness.

[zin]

Sounds like you two would be perfect to write a KC article!

BlueShadow, don't worry about not being the most knowledgeable, too many people have resigned themselves to a life of mediocrity simply because they didn't think they were the best qualified. YOU are the best qualified if no one else is doing it!

Now that the pep talk is over, go get'em!!

Mike

PS Am I alone in not particularly liking the "new" smileys? Just don't feel right using some of them, they seem overly silly or confused...

[BlueShadow]

You are not alone. I am not a fan either. Maybe its just because were so used to the old ones, but the new ones just seem wrong.

Would a KC article be better suited in electrical or interior. Its electrically intensive, but in the interior...?

[BlueShadow]

Well, I think I covered most of the information. http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/kn...ce-Information
There may be some mistakes, I hope not too many. If anyone knows if I mucked something up, please lmk.

Any other important info you can think of is appreciated. I'm torn on weather or not to put all the fault code info in there, as there are pages of it.

[zin]

I firmly believe in the philosophy of "better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it ".

But, if it will overwhelm the article, maybe hyper-link to another page of just codes and stuff folks might want /need.

Mike

[TopDollar69]

Very nice, I learned a few things. I had no idea the 88 panel was a one year only thing. I also did not know the 93 blend door motor was unique. If I have time, I will pull a Y body heater box to compare to a J body box.

[BlueShadow]

Well, do remember this info is what I have determined from wiring diagrams/service manuals/threads/etc, so you never know.
I'm still slightly unsure about the 93 blend motor, it still had 4 wires, but shows the wires in a different configuration. I imagine it probably works the same, but the wires look to be in a different order. Although if you have access to some of these years of cars, that could be quite helpful.

I'm also considering what might be involved to have the old head unit function with the newer blend door motor so as to maybe eliminate the error code. Also the vent temperature doesn't seem quite rite. That said, maybe I can see what the acceptable voltage range is supposed to be and mimic that somehow?..

Differences between the heater boxes between C/Y and the KJGPAH would be interesting. The part numbers for the K based and the C/Y are different in the catalog and I suspect that one of the mounting studs might be off - but different part numbers does not always mean actually different..

[bobconan]

Can anyone explain why the blend door wont stay in one place? If I set the temp to 68 it will just keep moving until it almost completely closes the the heat bypass. I have the 90 ATC from a New Yorker. Also are the codes the same for all the ATC's?

[bobconan]

As it turns out the temp sensor pin was not making contact at the head unit. Works fine now. Blend door definetly relies on temp to adjust position. I thought it adjusted temp by adjusting the blower motor and only when you hit the auto button.