Budget engine build...?

[BerBer5985]

If you were to build a 2.5L motor for a mini as a budget build shooting for mid to high 13's, what pieces would you use, including turbo, manifolds, exhaust, pistons, intercooler, heads, cam, ecu, etc. Basically what would be a great budget rebuild setup? Also it would be for a A413, and what would you do to that to handle the power?

[zin]

To hit your goal, or at least have the minimum HP needed to hit it (traction don't ya know...), you'll need about 310HP at the crank (about 265wHP).

I'd expect you could do that with a slightly upgraded turbo, ported stock exhaust manifold, 1 piece intake with the throat opened up or a 2 piece, NPR intercooler, mildly ported head, mostly to un-shroud the valves and shape the bowls a bit, not bigger ports, and an upgraded cam, F2ish? You'll need bigger injectors and a better fuel pump to support things, especially if your jump has some miles on it.

The biggest temptation will be to not get the forged pistons (any of the brands available to us will be fine, personal bias not withstanding), but they will live much longer and therefore keep your engine alive and kicking even if things get a little out of whack... Rods should be re-conditioned with new bolts, but stockers should live just fine at this level, though not much higher...

If you do search you'll find quite a bit on how to mod the 413 for heavier duty, but I would look at doing those mods to the guts of a Neon trans, stuffing it into the TM case, as the Neon trans got all the turbo upgrades and more (more efficient pump, etc), and are otherwise 100% compatible (as far as I know).

There's my .02, I'm sure others will chime in with their favorite recipe, hopefully the info is what you need.

Mike

[BerBer5985]

That's a step in the right direction. I'm trying to keep it as cheap as possible, but I don't want to CHEAP out on the parts I'll need. It'd be nice to get into the 300hp level. Also, would it be worth building a TII 2.2L and dropping it in or is that too much work? Just a thought. I was planning on pulling the current motor and working on a rebuild as I gather parts together.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

See, I would have the temptation to buy probably a lot of stuff I wouldn't need, like an intake mani or something when it's not required to reach a streetable goal of 300 whp or so. But i'd need to know what would be required for sure. I don't want to overbuild and overspend by too much, but I certainly don't want to underbuild.

[zin]

If you can mod the parts yourself, or mostly yourself (I'm no welder, so I farm that out), you can make stuff what it needs to be for cheap!

I'd spend the money on a vendor's exhaust manifold, too much work and they aren't very expensive, especially if you can find one in the for sale section for even less! There are a few nice cylinder head (ported) in the FS section, but they are a bit pricey for a "cheap" re-build, but would go a LONG way to making power... But, I'd put the $$ toward machine work etc 1st. Even a stock head will respond pretty well to the other mods mentioned, as the head isn't the biggest restriction in the system. I'd probably list those as: 1pcs (intake elbow), exhaust manifold, Camshaft. At least that where I'd expect to see my biggest bang for my buck... Speaking of that, a nitrous kit, kept to a reasonable hit (50HP or so) would do more than anything else, but if you need the extra HP often, more "permanent" mods would be a better choice.

The same kind of thing with the turbo, you'll likely be able to find a perfectly good take off unit from someone who'd outgrown it.

Places to NOT skimp are fasteners, machine work and calibrations. These are the "make it or break it" items IMHO, you could have all the best parts, but if the machine work is crap, you'll destroy them, ditto for fasteners, great parts but a blown HG or a rod hanging out of the block will ruin your day. The calibration is what makes all the not quite stock parts actually work together, same kind of deal, you could have bad-az parts, but have a cal that won't let them play nice...

A 2.2 in a van is probably not the best choice, though it would work, but the extra torque the 2.5 give you will be appreciated lugging all 3500lbs around!

If you can do it, building up a "spare" engine is the way to go, if nothing else, it allows you to only be without your van for the day or so it takes you to swap out the engines, no dead players taking up space in the driveway!

Mike

[BerBer5985]

Well the van is the project vehicle sitting in the garage and by no means a daily driver. So it could have downtime with no prob. I'm going to look for a spare when I go to the junkyard to get sone other parts that I can build up.

[turbovanman²]

Ok, this is my 2 cents, do you have A/C? Going mid 13's WILL not be cheap. Keep the 2.5.

My recipe-

Swirl head with a mild port job with +1mm valves, with it redone, IE guides, stock replacement springs or the S60 equivelant which I sell, stock cam
1 or 2 piece intake with the stock or 52mm t/n.
Arp head studs or new head bolts of any flavour, 005 gasket if you can find one or stock OEM replacement or cometic.
Good IC
Bottom end redone with either a hone job or rebored. I highly recommend forged due to the fact you make one tuning mistake on cast and your tearing the engine apart.
Reconditioned stock rods with ARP bolts.
Balance shafts are your choice and the engine should be balanced, regardless.
Poly bushings or MP engine mounts.
Stock exhaust manifold with a 50 trim stage II T3/T4 or you might squeak by with an S60 equivelant or a 46 trim T3/T4.
2.5 inch or 3" mandrel bent exhaust, turbo back.
Recal'd computer, 3 bar and +40's, 255 fuel pump.

The trans should be freshened up with tighter clutch packs, the various tricks and mods, better TC and a big oil cooler, and an OBX LSD or similiar. DO NOT use the spring loaded units, they suck.

Again, this won't be cheap but it will last and should easily net low to mid 13's, with slicks,

I ran low 14's with a maxed out stock turbo, mild port job, stock manifolds and computer, around 3300 lbs without me, I weighed 190 back then.

[BerBer5985]

I pulled the ac because it didn't work and it's not a daily driver. That's awesome info! Thanks! Also just out if curiosity, how do you "balance an engine". Or what would need to be to balance it. Does anyone recommend some of the heads from like fed or turbos unleashed?

[turbovanman²]

I pulled the ac because it didn't work and it's not a daily driver. That's awesome info! Thanks! Also just out if curiosity, how do you "balance an engine". Or what would need to be to balance it. Does anyone recommend some of the heads from like fed or turbos unleashed?

I added some info, IE slicks and OBX.

You match the weight of the pistons, then the small and big ends of the rods, then the crank is spun and balanced like a wheel and tire.

I do heads, Tylervanlant, FWD, TU, and BadfastGTC.

[BerBer5985]

Any competent machine shop should be able to handle those things right? As far as heads go, how much do you charge for a decent head.

[trannybuster]

There is a set of venolias in for sale section, prolly get'em for 125.00 shipped! Do yourself a favor put them in, yes you can run without them even at 300hp but one small issue and its an ashtray!

[turbovanman²]

Any competent machine shop should be able to handle those things right? As far as heads go, how much do you charge for a decent head.

Correct.

PM me with what you want and I'll put something together.

[Vigo]

The good news about how cheap it is to run 13s is that MOST of the parts on the van will still be stock. Like the entire shortblock and head.

But, you WILL need to upgrade the turbo to get into the 13s. The stock mitsu turbo will only move 200-220 hp worth of air. Only one person i know of has ever gotten into the 13s with a stock-turbo caravan, and that was by a tiny margin after much practice and probably in perfect track/weather/motor conditions.

If you want 300hp, that's something else. With slicks you wont need 300hp to run 13s. More like 220hp to crack 13.9 (on a 2.5 keep in mind this is over 300 lb ft going along with that 220 hp). 250hp is a safe bet.

If you want 300hp you should definitely find and buy a 2pc intake manifold, and you'll need to select a turbo with some headroom, and since you need to buy a turbo one way or another, you should figure this part out now.

If you just want to run 13s but arent really set on the 300hp number, you can bolt on a garrett t3 turbo that came stock on many 2.2s. This turbo sometimes goes VERY cheap, and most people can make about 270hp out of it. Some get a little higher. This is probably the cheapest turbo option to get into the 13s.

If you want to shoot for 300 or the low 300s, id say get what's called a super60. The name refers to the compressor wheel of the turbo, which is an improved version of a 60 trim t3 compressor wheel. The rest of the turbo could include several variations.. some consider the term 'super60' to include a certain compressor cover and turbine housing. However, if you were to simply take the stock garrett i mentioned above, put an s60 compressor wheel on it, and have the stock compressor cover machined to fit while changing nothing else about the turbo, it would still be able to get you 300+hp. The main benefit of the s60 for the 300hp goal is it will bolt on with NO mods (unless you count swapping to stock garrett oil and coolant lines a 'mod').

Going mid 13's WILL not be cheap.

That's fairly true.. you will need a turbo, injectors, calibration, slicks, exhaust, wideband, and intercooler. That adds up.

But, i also think your recipe is major overkill.

If you take a stock 2.5/auto turbo caravan that's in decent condition, bolt on a stock garrett, some +20 injectors, a good intercooler setup, a wideband, and hack the exhaust off behind the downpipe, it will go 13s on slicks.

[BerBer5985]

Will an s60 turbo housing bolt right up or a s60 stuffed inside a t3 case? I think that 13's would be a fun goal for a mini. Running 13's already makes it faster than most cars on the road and it's a minivan. Is tranny work needed to get there? There are a lot if 2 piece intakes for sale floating around I notice should it shouldn't be hard to just pick one up. I'm asking all these questions because I'm going to start picking up pieces as I find good deals, so im trying to come up with a good plan for it.

[BerBer5985]

So if I were to purchase a new or rebuilt turbo from one of the vendors, what would be a bolt on affair to make around 250-275 hp?

[Shadow]

So if I were to purchase a new or rebuilt turbo from one of the vendors, what would be a bolt on affair to make around 250-275 hp?

An S60 or even a T3 60 trim will get that done. (I think I might even have one left?)

Here's a quick build comparo for you from 10 years ago;

We took a 91 loaded Shelby Daytona, factory "high torque" 2.5 with 568 MTX with 110,000 original "Very well maintained" KM's and here's Exactly what we did.

1. Factory untouched longblock. We removed the head and inspected. Might have done some deshrouding in the chambers but No porting. Checked the rod bearings, dropped the balance shafts and then bundled it all back together with MP HG and UDP.

2. S60 turbo with .48 A/R turbine housing! 3" full exhaust through Dynomax muffler.

3. FWD performance stage 5 with +40 inj's and 3 bar map. + the 1100CFM Spearco I/C they sold back then, front mounted with K&N CAI up front behind the bumper.

So, stock 1piece intake with stock TB, no porting of the manifolds, that's it.

Car went 13.1 @ 108mph on 27psi boost with street tires and Only a 2.1 60'.

Now, that car was just over 3000lbs with driver, so add what, 500 more for your van and that's still an easy mid 13 sec on slicks. Better yet, you said your vans Not a DD, maybe you can get it close to 3000lbs + driver and you might go 12's!

If you want more on less boost, slap a 52mm TB with 2 piece intake and 46 trim To4e with .63 A/R stage 1 and away you go.

Edit; I checked in my records of this build just to be sure I was remembering everything right and a couple things to add.

- port match head to manifolds + very light porting to blend.

-Magnacore wires

-9YC Champion plugs gapped at .030"

-My #4 head cooling mod

- 180 deg T-stat (modded)

[RoadWarrior222]

IMO, the most important part of a budget engine build... is a budget engine... i.e. one that has not been messed with, has lowish miles and hasn't got 15 years worth of delayed maintenance to catch up with... that's how things turn expensive.

[Vigo]

Is tranny work needed to get there?

Honestly, if the trans shifts right as it is, i would do at least one thing to the trans, which is the line pressure bleed modification that is stickied at the top of the transmission section of the forum. You drill an orifice into the pressure regulator part of the valve body which raises line pressure. Go conservative on the orifice size. I drilled one smaller than recommended on a worn out trans and went from slipping to holding, and it isnt banging shifts hard enough to break parts as some people have described. So do that and it should hold enough power to get down the track in 13 sec. Of course, while you're in there it wouldnt hurt to do the rest of the diy shift kit and do a band adjustment, they're free to do.

Now, that car was just over 3000lbs with driver, so add what, 500 more for your van and that's still an easy mid 13 sec on slicks.

The vans are not much heavier than 3000 lbs. Mine, with both back benches taken out, was 3240 with me in it (~180-200), and a lot of other people have mentioned that theirs landed about there as well. So it should be around a 3300 race weight with the back benches out, sine mine is at least 50 lbs lighter from being 5spd vs auto.

Will an s60 turbo housing bolt right up or a s60 stuffed inside a t3 case?

An s60 compressor cover will bolt to a t3 center section if that is what you are asking. There are a few parts to a turbo: the compressor side, the center section, and the turbine side.

The compressor side is the comp wheel, comp cover, and backing plate.
The center section is the big cast housing with all the bearings and fluid passages in it.
The turbine side is the turbine wheel (which is made onto the turbo shaft, they are not separate pieces), and the turbine housing.

Compared to the t3 that comes on 2.2s, the s60 is always a different comp wheel, sometimes a different cover (some use a stock cover machined to fit), and never a different backing plate (it stays the same).

The center section is completely the same.

The turbine side is the same stock turbine wheel, and sometimes a different housing (.63 a/r versus the stock .48).


As shadow said, you can take a stock turbo, put an s60 wheel on it (with the accompanying comp cover machining), leave everything else the same, and go 13s easily.

[BerBer5985]

An S60 or even a T3 60 trim will get that done. (I think I might even have one left?)

One that you might be interested in selling?? Does anyone want to drive down here and help me with the build? haha! I live really close to DC and Baltimore and Annapolis, so you could do some sight seeing.

[turbovanman²]

That's fairly true.. you will need a turbo, injectors, calibration, slicks, exhaust, wideband, and intercooler. That adds up.

But, i also think your recipe is major overkill.

If you take a stock 2.5/auto turbo caravan that's in decent condition, bolt on a stock garrett, some +20 injectors, a good intercooler setup, a wideband, and hack the exhaust off behind the downpipe, it will go 13s on slicks.

Mid 13's is nothing to sneeze at, especially if its full weight and he's not planning on weight reduction. Sure he doesn't have to do it all but if your starting from scratch, do it right the first time and make it as easy as possible to do it. Most of what I suggested is simple common sense,

13.99 isn't easy to do, and it requires all the planets to be aligned.

Now, that car was just over 3000lbs with driver, so add what, 500 more for your van and that's still an easy mid 13 sec on slicks. Better yet, you said your vans Not a DD, maybe you can get it close to 3000lbs + driver and you might go 12's!

If you want more on less boost, slap a 52mm TB with 2 piece intake and 46 trim To4e with .63 A/R stage 1 and away you go.

No disrespect but comparing a van to a car is like apples and oranges and putting a 3000 lb van in the 12's with an s60 turbo without a major weight reduction would be close to impossible.

Agree'd on the 46 trim though,

[Shadow]

One that you might be interested in selling?? Does anyone want to drive down here and help me with the build? haha! I live really close to DC and Baltimore and Annapolis, so you could do some sight seeing.

I Had several new S60 turbos and MP+ 60 trim turbos. I sold most of them, but I'm thin king I came across one just before I left for SDAC. I'll take a look and see if it is indeed one of those two turbos.

I also have 1 more 2 piece intake with large volume fuel rail with 3/8 barbed inlet and AFPR that I was selling before SDAC and Was spoken for, but the person never finished the transaction. (ie. pay me for it lol) If your interested.