Horizon won't start after washing engine bay

[AngelesRunner]

Autozone sold me a rubber PCV valve elbow stamped "Made in China" that lasted one week before it split. Wouldn't have been so bad if the split had not spewed oil over the TBI, PS pump and all of the wiring. I sprayed everything with Gunk engine cleaner as I have done dozens of times in the past and then after 15 minutes hosed it off. The engine started and I moved the car and parked it overnight. In the morning it wouldn't start.

Has fuel pump whirr, has fuel at the fitting into the TBI, has spark from the coil to the thermostat housing as an engine ground. The computer is reading the distributor pickup and knows it is turning.

Pulled a plug and found a gap of about 0.060". Pulled the rest and they were as large or larger. Changed plugs to new Autolite 65 at proper gap of 0.035" with high temperature anti-sieze on threads and 26 ftlb of torque. Still no start.

Found some of the wires between the valve cover and the TBI had lost insulation so I cleaner them up and taped them up with electrical tape. Still no start.

Recharged the battery off of my wife's Shadow. Left the Horizon to hopefully dry out overnight. At this point I would take apart all of the connectors and spray them out. Anyone with any other suggestions?


I did find out that you can substitute 2" of 5/8" heater hose with another small piece of hose stuck in one end for the rubber PCV valve elbow. I found a smaller piece of tubing that just fit onto the PCV valve and was tight enough that I put the two pieces of tubing together with Permatex #2 to seal and with a zip tie to hold them together. No more $5 PCV valve elbows that only last one year!

[black86glhs]

Make sure the is no water under the distributor cap.

[boboli]

any codes?
May be check fuel pressure. Even though you have fuel, there may be too low a pressure. I bought a tbi omni recently that someone thought was carbed and took out the intake pump and substituted a piece of hose, then wondered why the car still wouldn't run on his external carb fuel pump.

[AngelesRunner]

No codes except 12 and 55 because I had disconnected the battery to clean the terminals.

Already removed and wiped clean everything in the distributor and pulled and dried all of the plug and coil wires.

Car was running for a year since I bought it. I don't think fuel pressure is the problem. It started after wash and rinse then wouldn't restart the next morning.

I didn't know the plugs were in such bad shape but it was running for a year and they are new now.

[135sohc]

Chrysler still stocks that PCV elbow. They turn hard as a rock and dont seal anymore before splitting open.

[contraption22]

Are you saying it will crank and not start, or it won't crank?

[JohnnyIroc]

have you changed the Hep?

[Vigo]

He said it was reading on the scan-tool..so why bother?

[AngelesRunner]

The 89 Horizon cranks and doesn't start.

The Autozone PCV valve elbow only lasted one week. Now it is replaced with two pieces of hose. Smaller hose that fits the end of the PCV valve pushed inside of 5/8 heater hose. The fit is tight between the two hoses so I have Permatex #2 between them to assemble them and to seal them. There is a zip tie around the two hoses where they surround the end of the PCV valve.

All wiring harness connectors have been separated and blown out with brake parts cleaner and are about to get a shot of WD-40 before I put them back together.

I tried the known good rotor, cap and wires from my 88 Horizon before I disassembled the wiring harness connectors.

What is a Hep??

I get the fuel pump whirr when the key is turned. There is fuel pulsing out at the TBI when the fuel line hose is disconnected and the engine cranked.

The coil wire disconnected from the distributor sparks to the thermostat housing.

[minigts]

Do you have fuel on the spark plugs? I know you said it had fuel, but if you crank and crank and crank, there should be some on there. If you have spark, fuel and compression...and air, the car will fire. If you're missing one of those it will not. Not trying to be a wise guy, but you're missing one of the four and I'd bet it's fuel or enough. That sucks though, having it run and then not when you try it the next day with what seems to be no change. Happened to me and it turned out to be something simple, though I don't remember what it was. :$

Oh and make sure the timing belt didn't break. THAT will cause it not to run either.

[Vigo]

What is a Hep??

Hall effect pickup. It's the sensor inside the distritbutor that senses engine rpm and crank position, you were reading engine rpm off it.

The HEP senses rpm and the computer turns on the ASD relay which supplies the power to the coil, fuel pump, and injectors. Since you verified the fuel pump and coil are working, and read rpm on the scanner, you have already ruled out a HEP issue. The only way i see that it could still be a problem is if only one of the two sensors in the HEP died.. on the scanner it should have a line that says SYNC, if both sensors are working it will say yes, if one isnt it will say no.

[AngelesRunner]

Pulled off the wire to plug #1 and stuck an old plug in the boot. Grounded the outer electrode to the thermostat housing and had daughter crank the engine. 3 sequential perfect sparks. The computer is getting the signal that the distributor is turning from the HEP and firing the coil. This also rules out the autoshutdown relay turning off all of the systems.

The fuel pump is pumping. I have to check the electrical signal to the fuel injector. Anyone know what you should see on a voltmeter??

I don't have a scanner. I verified the lack of codes with the key dance and the check engine light. 12 and 55. Lack of a code 11 verifies that the computer is seeing a distributor reference signal. I also know that the camshaft is turning because I can see the sprocket.

A year ago I chased through everything on the Caravan before I checked through the reference hole in the plastic tower and saw that the sprocket wasn't turning. That is where I learned to check codes, pull the battery cable to clear codes, then check again after cranking to check for code 11.

[minigts]

Make sure your ground to the fuel rail/TB injector is good. I know when that wire was not connected on my car, it would not start and everything seemed to be in place. You should see 12v to the injectors, but I don't remember which one it is. But the ground is something to make sure of.

[black86glhs]

Have you checked to see if a hose has come off and is allowing air to bypass the IAC? Just a thought.

[raccoon]

drench the ignition in WD40.

[AngelesRunner]

All vacuum hoses are on the correct outlets. The ignition side is working throwing sparks on time as mentioned in the previous post.

Looked in my Chilton's manual and one of the wires to the fuel injector goes to pin B9 on the multiconnector that attaches to the computer. This has to be the ground side of the circuit. The other wire comes in hot from the ASR (Auto Shutdown Relay) which means it should be at battery voltage.

Will test continuity from the ASR to the injector and then from the injector to pin B9. Will try the fuel pressure relieving technique to see if the injector fires with direct battery voltage and ground.

This should identify a problem if there is one in the fuel injection system.

[AngelesRunner]

It turned out that the problem was the 1 1/2" of water in the air box. I had pulled the box open and pulled out the filter without checking all the way to the bottom. My friend found it, dried it out, squirted in some gas and started it up. I had previously checked continuity of the wiring harness to the sensors and from the autoshut down relay to the fuel injector.

NOW AN INTERESTING PROBLEM:
The car has a shake at idle.
The car is down on power.
The car doesn't want to shift 1st to 2nd unless you run it up in revs and then back off the throttle.
The car is running hotter but there isn't pressure in the cooling system.

Oil level was low but it leaks at the front and rear main seals. (From before the no start event)
There is a mid block deep knocking noise that I feel is one end of a connecting rod. (From before the no start event)

After doing it 4 times previously on other 2.2s and 2.5s I have the head gasket feeling.

Maybe some water in one of the cylinders and enough pressure to rupture the gasket at the narrow spot where it passes over the siamesed cylinder bores.

With the leaking the engine needs to come out of the car. With the knocking the block needs to come apart. If I have to pull out the engine I am debating swapping a 2.5 in need of rod & main bearings and front and rear seals and a recently rebuilt A413 out of my 91 Caravan body (Rusty) and scrapping the Caravan. I could replace the seals and bearings and turn the crank while the engine was removed from the Caravan.

I could just swap the whole 2.5L Caravan long block and trans into the Horizon and connect it up to the existing electronics. Both are common block and A413 lockup transmissions.

Opinions??

I am waiting on this decision to replace shocks and struts and rebuilt control arms and do SLH2 to this Horizon with parts from an 89 Voyager and a 1990 LeBaron.

[black86glhs]

It sounds possible you sucked in some water.

[AngelesRunner]

Car oil level was a quart low. Coolant was low and check of system showed the rad cap unable to hold any pressure. Timing was at 6 degrees BTDC. Figure it was running low on power and overheating without ability to pressurize the radiator and operate at higher temps without boiling out the coolant.

Refilled oil and coolant. Replaced rad cap. Adjusted timing to 12 degrees BTDC. Car now shifts if you back off just slightly on the gas pedal. Did a cylinder pressure test and got 135, 143, 135 and 130 psi. Can't do a leak down test. No bubbles in rad, no mixing of oil and water. No apparent water in the trans fluid.

Engine leaks from front and rear main seals. Can't fix that without pulling the trans, engine so I'll just have to watch it.