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Thread: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

  1. #21
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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelesRunner View Post
    So very true, MONEY TALKS, and it's a wonder why they developed a smaller rotors and calipers and drums for the L-bodies when for the GLH they used existing parts that were designed for the larger cars that weighed 500 pounds more. I would guess that 1) They did save money over the entire production run of the Omni/Horizon fleet by using smaller, lighter, cheaper pieces even after paying development and tooling, 2) Unsprung weight may have been a problem when using correspondingly cheap struts, or 3) They may have needed smaller parts to go inside the 13 inch rims.

    So what about it? has anyone out there switched a GLH over to 60 mm calipers from a minivan either retaining the stock GLH 220 mm rear drums or gone to the unventilated rear discs like SLH2? If so what was it like compared to stock GLH? In the rain, braking in a turn, panic stops, anything anyone can contribute?

    Anyone used minivan calipers on a Shadow/Sundance or Spirit/Acclaim?
    minigts has stock brakes on the rear of his GLHS and 11" brakes on the front. Seems to work very well for him.

  2. #22
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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    If the GLHS and GLH share the same braking system, and I don't know that they do, then he has 220 mm drum brakes on the rear wheels. If the master cylinder bores are the same for both cars, GLH and GLHS, then the same line pressure will be generated with the same foot pressure on the pedal. With the same line pressure increased braking force would come from a larger caliper piston diameter OR larger diameter rotors OR BOTH.

    11" rotors (279.4 mm diameter) on the front are not substantially larger than the 10.25" (260 mm) rotors on the GLH. Probably more important would be if the caliper's piston diameter were larger to generate more force with the same line pressure.

    The type of friction material on the pads may, in itself, make more of a difference in braking force than the system components size if pads were swapped out that had a low coefficient of friction and the best pads were used instead. Bigger pads just allow more heat (energy) to be transferred without melting the pads and extend the life of the pads under severe conditions.

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelesRunner View Post
    If the GLHS and GLH share the same braking system, and I don't know that they do, then he has 220 mm drum brakes on the rear wheels. If the master cylinder bores are the same for both cars, GLH and GLHS, then the same line pressure will be generated with the same foot pressure on the pedal. With the same line pressure increased braking force would come from a larger caliper piston diameter OR larger diameter rotors OR BOTH.

    11" rotors (279.4 mm diameter) on the front are not substantially larger than the 10.25" (260 mm) rotors on the GLH. Probably more important would be if the caliper's piston diameter were larger to generate more force with the same line pressure.

    The type of friction material on the pads may, in itself, make more of a difference in braking force than the system components size if pads were swapped out that had a low coefficient of friction and the best pads were used instead. Bigger pads just allow more heat (energy) to be transferred without melting the pads and extend the life of the pads under severe conditions.
    I'm not sure if you're asking a question or writing a proof. The GLHS uses the stock Shelby charger/GLH braking system.

    There is a huge difference between the stock GLH brakes and 11" brakes. For that matter there is a huge difference between the stock 10.5" brakes on the non-L body turbo cars and the 11" brakes on the 89' TII cars and R/Ts.

  4. #24
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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    Quote Originally Posted by AngelesRunner View Post
    11" rotors (279.4 mm diameter) on the front are not substantially larger than the 10.25" (260 mm) rotors on the GLH.
    Don't forget area increases by the square, so 3/4 might not look a lot but the area is more significant... Well I forget how big the center is, let's say 6" for illustration purposes.

    Big rotor swept area is, Pi(11/2)^2 - Pi(6/2)^2 = (3.14159 * 30.25) - (3.14159 * 9) = 66.76 square inches...
    Smaller rotor swept area is, Pi(10.25/2)^2 - Pi(6/2)^2 = (3.14159 * 26.27) - (3.14159 * 9) = 54.24 square inches.

    Which is about a 20% difference rather than the ~7% difference in diameter which doesn't seem like much.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadWarrior222 View Post
    Don't forget area increases by the square, so 3/4 might not look a lot but the area is more significant... Well I forget how big the center is, let's say 6" for illustration purposes.

    Big rotor swept area is, Pi(11/2)^2 - Pi(6/2)^2 = (3.14159 * 30.25) - (3.14159 * 9) = 66.76 square inches...
    Smaller rotor swept area is, Pi(10.25/2)^2 - Pi(6/2)^2 = (3.14159 * 26.27) - (3.14159 * 9) = 54.24 square inches.

    Which is about a 20% difference rather than the ~7% difference in diameter which doesn't seem like much.
    Thanks. I did the numbers, but didn't want to take the time to go through it all.

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    Area figures into how much heat can be transferred across the surface to keep the system from melting down. Larger swept area also allows longer brake pad life when using an aggressive brake pad with a higher coefficient of friction. However, larger diameter rotors increase braking force by applying the caliper's clamping pressure further from the axis of rotation. Like using a screwdriver with a fatter handle or a longer breaker bar. Increase in braking force with increase in rotor diameter is linear (torque = force x distance). In a race car, larger rotors increase unsprung weight and resist the driver's inputs to turn the wheel so there are practical size limits. I suspect that the 11" rotors also use a piston in the caliper that is larger than the 54 mm piston in the standard KH car brakes. The 60 mm piston diameter in the minivan calipers alone would produce 23% more clamping pressure than a 54 mm piston. Race cars go to 4 piston calipers to increase clamping force at reasonable line pressures.

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    The 11" disc is alot larger than the 10" stockers, just lay them side by side. Not sure what your trying to ask on page 2, but just do the SLH package with Minivan calipers and non vented rear discs, 24mm master and it will be a totally different car. I did that exact package on a customers car and it was like a race car,

    I put 11" on the front and switched to 11" rear disc over drum on my van, the difference is night and day.
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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    I'm not good with numbers, but I can say this- My old Turbo Z had the minivan setup on the front and non-vented Shelby Z discs on the rear, and stopped very well. But when I stepped up to the bigger brakes in my '91, the difference was very impressive even though the '91 is considerably heavier.

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    The 11" disc is alot larger than the 10" stockers, just lay them side by side. Not sure what your trying to ask on page 2, but just do the SLH package with Minivan calipers and non vented rear discs, 24mm master and it will be a totally different car. I did that exact package on a customers car and it was like a race car,

    I put 11" on the front and switched to 11" rear disc over drum on my van, the difference is night and day.
    What is (11" rear disc over drum)?

    Thank you for the recommendation for SLH2. I am leaning to that for my best Horizon because I have all of the pieces and using the LeBaron's 54mm front discs and 220mm drums on the other Horizon.

    What do you recommend for tire size as I have 14" steel 5 lug wheels and 15" aluminum 5 lug wheels?

    What changes would you make in the stock suspension in order of "bang for the buck" to keep the car from rolling over on the door handles when cornering?

  10. #30
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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    Well I don't think the 14" fit on 11" brakes, so you'll need the 15", also you'll probably get back 5lb a corner unsprung weight vs the steelies. Forgot what width is maximum safest on L's, the others take 215 easy with some slight rubs with 225s, with height ratio appropriate for what wheel diameter you need to keep. I think it's something like 215/50...
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

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    Thumbs up Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    These are some Chrysler vehicles of interest to this site and the corresponding tire sizes.

    Tire shopping at auto wrecking yards can yield bargain gems of the tire world. Twice, i've found a set of 4 15" Aluminum rims from the higher end Acclaim and Dynasty with good tires (70% tread) already balanced for $140/set. And! No tire disposal fee AND they took the old tires off of my steel rims. $140 for 4 aluminum wheels and 4 good tires because almost no one wants Chrysler and 5 lug 5 x 100 doesn't seem to be a popular wheel mount size. Granted these are factory wheels for the cars with sporting or luxury packages and not special GLH or GLHS wheels but come on, $140 for 4 wheels and 4 good balanced tires. Why shop anywhere else?

    Steel rims are: 14 x 5.5JJ
    Aluminum rims are: 14 x 6JJ or 15 x 6JJ
    European cars got: 15 x 6.5JJ and from pictures these are aluminum rims.

    Tire Diameter Labeled Size Vehicle Application(s)
    (In Inches)
    26.29 205/70R15 Caravan
    25.21 195/60VR16 Neon R/T (2002)
    24.74 195/70R14 Acclaim Stock
    24.68 205/60R15 Spirit R/T
    24.65 185/80R13
    24.21 195/60R15 89 Shadow Competition Package/Shadow Option/Shadow ES Option
    24.19 185/70R14 Acclaim/Shadow/LeBaron
    23.98 195/65R14
    23.85 225/50R15
    23.74 185/60R15 Neon Option/SE/ES/ACR/LX
    23.67 195/50VR16 Neon R/T & Sport (2001)
    23.46 215/50R15
    23.46 185/65R14 Base Neon/Sport/Expresso/ACR 2-dr/(R/T)
    23.39 165/80R13 Omni/Horizon
    23.21 195/60R14
    23.07 205/50R15 Omni GLHS
    22.95 175/65HR14 Neon ACR 4-dr
    22.74 185/60R14
    22.67 195/50R15 Omni GLH
    22.64 175/70R13
    Size data courtesy of the tire comparator at 1010Tires.com Best comparator I've found. Up to 5 tires compared side to side on one screen.
    Last edited by AngelesRunner; 07-24-2011 at 05:06 PM.

  12. #32
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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadWarrior222 View Post
    Well I don't think the 14" fit on 11" brakes, so you'll need the 15", also you'll probably get back 5lb a corner unsprung weight vs the steelies. Forgot what width is maximum safest on L's, the others take 215 easy with some slight rubs with 225s, with height ratio appropriate for what wheel diameter you need to keep. I think it's something like 215/50...
    You are right. 15" wheels are the minimum for the 11" brakes. Even then some minor grinding of the calipers may be needed to clear some of them.

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    The first two sets of wheels I got from auto salvage were the optional Chrysler wheels used on the higher performance models when they came stock with 15" wheels. One set is on a 91 Caravan with 205/70R-15 tires. The Caravan's brakes are 60 mm caliper Kelsey Hayes brakes. The 3rd set of wheels is American Racing wheels which were on a 1989 LeBaron Convertible with a 3.0 V6 which has 54 mm Caliper Kelsey Hayes brakes. If this set doesn't fit over larger brakes I'll just swap over to use them on an Acclaim which has 54 mm KH calipers.

    Since the Omni GLHS used 205/50R15 tires I guess that size is the widest to be put under an L body car.

    I can make one Horizon into a GLH Turbo SLH2 with the complete 2.5 T1 package and the front calipers from the 89 Voyager and the rear unvented discs from the 89 LeBaron. I have a set of GLH steering knuckles to use on this vehicle and KYB GR2 struts and shocks for this vehicle.

    The 2nd Horizon will get the 2.5 TBI engine from the 91 Caravan and be like a GLH with 54 mm calipers and ventilated rotors in front and 220 mm drums in the rear. I'll need to use the right brake horns with stock Horizon knuckles or get another set of GLH knuckles for this car. I have Monroe struts for this car.

    I pulled out the front brake lines from the 2nd Horizon yesterday in the garage. What a ----- of a job with the engine still in the car.

  14. #34
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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    skip the blasted SLH brakes formula.&nbsp; vented rear disc without the matching big 11" fronts is a waste.&nbsp; the front end is where you need the best braking possible (proved that by going to 11" 93 lesabre brakes on my 89 that had 10" rotors), and on the super light omni-horizon body the vented rear is super overkill (ie lockup like crazy).&nbsp; upgrade to 220mm drums or the solid disc at the most if you plan to race your car and get 11" fronts.&nbsp; the 89 dayton/gtc w/ 11" brakes has the caliper bracket built into the knuckle and the knuckle is the correct geometry for the older style a-arms.&nbsp; <br><br>as for the turbo vs tbi debate.&nbsp; yes turbo engines make more power but the flip side is they are not quite as fuel efficient, require more maintenance and demand premium fuel (unless you subject your stock T1 motor to 87 octane and forgo max performance).&nbsp; even the tbi engines are pretty peppy.&nbsp; if you install a turbo intake and mpi on a tbi engine you will boost performance and fuel economy.&nbsp; it wasn't a road burner but my 91 dynasty with stock 2.5/auto combo was pretty zippy around town.&nbsp; now, a 5spd would have made it easier to keep up with neons, civics, etc.&nbsp; a 2.5/5spd with a few tweaks would make am omni pretty darn quick for a non-boosted ride.&nbsp; the slush box is the worst thing that ever happened to dodge tbi motor.

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    ""skip the blasted SLH brakes formula. vented rear disc without the matching big 11" fronts is a waste""

    I'm not talking about the vented rear discs. That is part of SLH3. I'm talking about SLH2 as recommended by TurboVanMan using 60 mm piston minivan calipers with 260 mm vented rotors on factory 15" aluminum rims for the front and a complete 90 LeBaron unventilated discs rear setup. This is going to go on one 2,200 pound 89 Plymouth Horizon changed over to the Omni GLH knuckles which use the larger front wheel bearings of the Chrysler 2,700 pound sedans.

    The other car, 88 Horizon, will be like a GLH clone using Kelsey Hayes calipers with a 54 mm piston and 260 mm vented front rotors and the 220 mm drum brakes. This car may get 14" steel rims as I have them with a set of 185/65R14 tires already mounted.

    For daily driving I was happy with a 2.5 L TBI 3 speed A413 Automatic setup in a 91 Caravan and in a 91 Acclaim. Both of these vehicles are about 500 pounds heavier than a Horizon so I should be even happier with that engine/transmission combination in a lighter vehicle. I'm not sure I would want to go through the hassle of shoe-horning the T1 turbo 2.5 from the 89 Voyager into either Horizon's engine bay. It is TIGHT!

    My main remaining area for these conversions is what to do with the suspension since both Horizons suffer from understeer and excessive body roll when cornering. Anyone with experience on suspension modifications for the Omni/Horizon willing to weigh in?

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    Bigger sway bar, wheels will make a diff, new polyurethane bushings and custom alignment.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    They will understeer quite badly unless you get the rear stiffened up well.

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    ""Bigger sway bar, wheels will make a diff, new polyurethane bushings and custom alignment.""

    Bigger for front? or rear? There is no bar on the rear. I have now one complete set of Moog balljoints, tie rod ends and the a-arm and strut rod bushings. Would this set be suitable or should I relegate the bushings to the second car?

    Biggie! What do you mean by "custom alignment"?

    ""They will understeer quite badly unless you get the rear stiffened up well.""

    I have KYB GR2 shocks for the rear. What else should be done?

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    Re: 90 LeBaron V6 brake system w/rear discs on 89 Horizon/TBI or T1 engine swap?

    You could install one of the www.polybushings.com rear sway bars. You could also try and track down a set of Konis for it. The GR2s are a good strut for the L body cars IMO, but nothing like some of the real performance oriented stuff. I would get some of Johnny's "race durometer" bushings for the car if you want to go all out. At least a set of the energy suspension bushings for the front given what the old ones must be like. That won't help the back turn much though.

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