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Thread: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

  1. #1601

    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    e85/alcohol doesn't like to vaporize well at low temps. In countries like Brazil where they use a lot of alcohol fuel, they often have a small gasoline tank under the hood to start the engine with, then switch over to alcohol. Heated injectors are being developed to get rid of the gasoline tank.

    You might be able to start it with some starter fluid. Once you get some heat in the engine/combustion chamber it should run on e85.

  2. #1602
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    well, yes.

    I made a few changes but havnt tried starting yet. cranking timing was at 20* dont ask me why. dropped it to 8* and added fuel. If that does not work then ill get some starter fluid.

  3. #1603
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    so for anyone that cares, Right now im buying some regrind cams. Also plans for 95lb injectors (or whatever i find a deal on) plus holset turbo. other plans in the works but thats the jist of it right now, dont need to get in over my head right now.

  4. #1604
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundance 6g72 View Post
    dont need to get in over my head right now.
    Hummm, 95lb injectors at 48psi (stock pressure) give around 1000 horsies worth of fuel, 80% duty cycle... I think "in over your head" in terms, of keeping it together and managing to get it to do something in the ballpark of what your steering and throttle input are telling it to do starts at about 600...
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  5. #1605
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    you sure about that? e85? Right now my 46# (unless i was lied too) are maxed at 315hp on e85. 100% duty cycle.

  6. #1606
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Damn, just realised, injector sizing HP guesstimate for 6 cyl is just add a zero to the lb/hr... or take a zero off HP target to spitball inj size.

    ---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------

    gah yeah, apart from e85... you get about half, or need double
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  7. #1607
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    sometimes i just have no idea what you are talking about :P

    i did a proportion at work to figure it out

    46 = 315hp (100dc)
    95 = x (100dc) = 650whp so take 20% from that number and we get 520whp @ 80% duty cycle or something close, im sure thats not EXACT but whatever. 95# is not more expensive than 75 and 85 when you look on DIY's site.

    with a 450whp goal (we are talking pushing this stock motor, i dont even know if ill go past 400whp unless i really want to stirr things up. i know my rings are gapped right (should be :O ) and im running e85 but still... Even 500+ hp i probably will get head flex unless brent only got it because he has bad luck.

  8. #1608
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    well his was built heads have massaged combustion cambers to that i would think they would be a lil weaker there but not sure hope you get it going

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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Hmm I wonder what Brent thinks.... I had actually forgot that he had head flex issues until you said that.

  10. #1610
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Thats why im iffy on trying to push it that far assuming i can keep the block alive, smart tuning.

  11. #1611
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    I dont think the block would be the issue IMO. A good tune goes a long way as you already know. I'm sure Brent will chime in sooner or later.

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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by paduster View Post
    well his was built heads have massaged combustion cambers to that i would think they would be a lil weaker there but not sure hope you get it going
    Well it could also remove stress risers and have a "peening" effect too, so could be a coin toss whether they end up stronger or weaker.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  13. #1613
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    I guess ill have to find out

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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    i sliced apart a stock head and the combustion chamber wall wasnt any thinner than 3/8" , and from what i measured it was more like a tick less than 1/2". most of the problem comes from 4 head fasteners around each combustion chamber. look no farther than the small block mopar guys blowing head gaskets and pushing coolant with turbo and supercharged applications (they have the same number of headbolts per cylinder) and also why a blown 2nd gen hemi can take 150psi without constantly blowing gaskets, they use six per cylinder. i'd bet a lot of the head flexing "problems" at high cylinder pressure would be gone with one or two more fasteners per cylinder, impossible to do, but i bet it would help.

  15. #1615
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    So its a combination of thin material and lack of fasteners? I know the dohc guysbdont suffer from it like brent did

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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    i dont think that the material is too thin, it seems to be about right for thickness. i am thinking it is a fastener thing. the dohc guys usually have fully tunable fuelling and ignition timing, as far as i have read before brent wasnt using a tunable system on his built motor, just a rrfpr and stock computer. stock n/a timing curve retarded or not is death for a turbo motor with high boost and big power. thats why i have my piggyback, i can retard the timing when i get detonation, and tune it out same as you can with your megasquirt.
    a thing to note is that if you are using high impedance injectors in a 95#/hr you could have problems having a nice smooth stoich idle, im running siemens/deka 60#/hr injectors and the injector duty cycle is down around 2-3% and the car idles around 13.5-14:1 at best, any leaner with the tuning and the car sputters and stalls. but i suppose with e85 it'd be a different story. i have also read that guys running the newest style of bosch injectors from injector dynamics can easily tune them down for nearly any motor.

  17. #1617
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    ahh that is right.. i cant remember what exact combo he was using when it happened but something tells me it was his "ghetto fuel setup" haha.

    I guess noone has gone that far with e85/megasquirt that i know of. I know your motor is looking to be setup to be a record breaker and so is another member's (cant remember his username, dosnt post alot but has badass spirit with big turbo)

    I kinda like the idea of seeing how far i can push a stock block with no head porting. I dont even have the best manifold option going on either. I dont have to worry about breaking things anymore either considering i have a new DD now.

    as for injectors, on DYI's site, 95# are the same price as some smaller options.. not worried about idle to be honest. If i need to idle rich thats fine, this isnt a DD anymore.

  18. #1618
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by paduster View Post
    well his was built heads have massaged combustion cambers to that i would think they would be a lil weaker there but not sure hope you get it going
    A lot weaker IMO. I went a little crazy. i took them out near to my planned bore size for the +.096 overbore I had in the forged shorblock. I still have the tracing template in a folder in the closet. Those heads are near junk status after the last valve job I had to fix damage from broken spark plug porcelain. No margin left for another valve job. A concern I had with that was the piston quench being larger then the head and creating hot spots but I am paranoid. Worst case, take down the sharp edges on the piston. I might partial fill them one day and then drill out the coolant passages where it is needed. That or just run O rings etc etc. There are so many solutions for sealing heads. You can also have someone install posts in your cylinder head to prevent weak areas from flexing. They have to do that same fix to the DOHC cylinder head. IMO the best thing about a 2JZ is that the cylinder head combustion chamber is very strong. Solid metal behind the sealing surfaces. Seen 2J's fail in a few passes with a lot less then those bragged about stock motor numbers when there are slicks and hard launches from an auto trans involved. Spinning has helped me too! My friend took his MKIII Supra to TX2k12 and lost a motor at the dyno down there and had to source another 2JZ-GE motor from the wreckers. 2JZ-GE is the n/a version and the bottom end simply has higher compression pistons. He tends to hurt rods, especially with some spray! AWD and more weight puts a lot more hurtin on 6g72 rods. Put both on an engine dyno and things will be quite even. On a tube chassis car the 6g72 will have a weight advantage. Definitely harder to make power since you can't just buy catalog parts and getting the valvetrain to rev as high as the supra is gonna cost you. Neither seems like a great idea if you want things easy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCMtVawd_Vo Watched that and while the turbo small displacement stuff is cool, it sure seems pointless when you lose. 600ci+ BBC will go fast on or off boost and I don't think I can handle the $ or the danger.
    Interested to see if you can get the 95's to run well on E85 and I would love to see you try running them on low boost and Pump gas just for info sake! The E85 math gets a little messy but you need more fuel then most people seem to think but not as much as some people exaggerate. :P I think a safety margin is more important on Ethanol since it has poor detonation suppression at lean mixtures. Also, the more injector, the less your fuel pump has to work at high pressures. When you run more boost you get a big jump in fuel pressure without even touching base pressure. I did 117mph on the same size injector E85 with no methanol supplementation but that was at very very very high fuel pressure (RRR). With a normal regulator I have more reliability but probably a lot less power. I would guess near the same HP on E85 and then ~75whp more with the Methanol turned on.

    I am still tempted to run a RRR sometimes but they can't bypass enough fuel on a twin pump setup unless you are okay with running high base pressure or hog out the passages like I did or both. I ran my fuel pumps with a 2 volt diode drop to achieve the final outcome of near 30psi base pressure. Not really necessary with MSII

    Seems more straightforward to run all injector (no meth either) and more reliable. Smart. Sometimes I find that boring but I used to have time to spare.
    Last edited by Ondonti; 01-20-2013 at 06:17 AM.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  19. #1619
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    okay then

    what turbo yall think i should run with assuming i my self can achieve those numbers, holset for sure.. i seem to be able to find them cheep? Remember, things get interesting with only having a 2.5bar map sensor

    im really excited to try bigger cams.. more duration and lift and a real powerband that works above 5000rpm

  20. #1620
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    i'd say holset hx35, it is a good match for the size of your motor, i was going to buy one, but couldnt find one complete for the right price so i bought a turbo from shadow. the "he" turbo's are real nice too and flow a lot on the compressor side but the exhaust side is kind of tiny for a strong 300-450hp 3l in my opinion, (basically a .63ar t3) the hx uses a twin scroll setup, but you can cut it back and port it like boosgeek did, or personally if i were you i'd modify the t3 flange to be a twin scroll.
    your going to love the cams, i got the entry level ones, and even with just 3psi for ring seating my car is a riot to drive. tons of torque and then the hp comes on strong in a nice balanced way. look fwd to 15-20 psi.

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