Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

[Irocelectric93]

Alright. Set your trigger angle to 50-65 or so. I'd start about 65. Make sure your dizzy settings are "trigger return" which you've probably done already. You're not getting spark it sound like to me. You should get spark regardless of your dizzy trigger angle, timing etc. Pull the plug on the coil (not spark plug wire side). Turn your key on but don't start it and test it with a multimeter to see if you are getting 12V at any time TO the coil itself. It should get 12v then fall off after pump primes and injectors click. If you're not getting 12V ever then you have a problem there. I haven't seen the difference in the P-body wiring diagrams from the daytona but im assuming that the ASD relay still completes the injector circuit as well as the coil/plugs etc. Also does your pump prime when you turn the key? Also your MS doesn't have LED's on the body either? My MS3 doesn't so you'll have to wire in an LED if you want to setup your dizzy manually like Ryan explained. I had to do it this way. Basically get an LED and 470 ohm resistor and wire the resistor into the gray dizzy wire (from ms harness) and then wire the LED in. Should have a long and short leg (anode...cathode blah blah) basically Long side is positive short side negative. Positive should go to 12V source IE: where you're dizzy gets power from and the short side to the Gray wire after the resistor. Just "tap" into these wires as Ryan puts it and then you can proceed to set it up the way Ryan explained. It really didn't help me a whole lot to be honest but that is the way its done.

[Sundance 6g72]

power to the coil positive drops off after pump primes. the test light shows this.

the test light never lights up when i put it on the coil to dizzy wire BUT it dosnt show up when the sbec is hooked up even though it starts

so maybe a multimeter is what i need.

ill mess with the trigger angle and make sure im set for trigger return.

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

what should i have for angle between main and return degree

looks like i had it set for basic trigger and not trigger return

---------- Post added at 02:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:20 PM ----------

should i have rising edge or falling edge

[Irocelectric93]

Edited above post BTW. So pump is priming which is good. Sounds like power to coil is there...maybe. You said you pulled a plug out with it still connected to spark plug wire and tried to crank to visually see spark?

---------- Post added at 01:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 PM ----------

Basic Trigger can work too but go with Trigger return. Falling edge.

[Sundance 6g72]

what should angle between main and return be? thats the only setting i need and ill try again

i also read your previous post again but ill have to read again in a second.. i caant focus right now

[Irocelectric93]

I didn't even mess with that setting to be honest. What is yours set at now?

[Sundance 6g72]

spark A output pin was set at D14

i changed it to JS10 and it really wanted to start but it didnt. we are letting it sit (assuming its flooded)

trigger angle offset is at 65

angle between main and return 50

help?

[Irocelectric93]

i believe either way it should start. Mine is set to JS10 as well and mine starts and runs no prob....just super rich. Move your trigger angle around some more. Try going down a little...then up a little. I went in increments of 2 or 3 until i found mine. You're obviously close.

[Sundance 6g72]

it sounds like the setting i changed decides what pin has the ignition wired to it.

if that setting is wrong, i shouldnt get spark.

im trying to start now, ill report back

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

got it to start

had to have js10 on as "spark A output"

trigger angle offset is set at 70
angle between main and return is set at 50

it idles rough and backfires like a son of a gun

[Irocelectric93]

Good job. sounds like you need to tune it but the worst is over....kind of. I'd get a timing light and check timing to see if it matches what TS is saying first. Maybe adjust your trigger angle a little more. as well.

[Sundance 6g72]

ill have the timing light out tonight. never used one before

car can drive but if i pin the gas (i know, i shouldnt have done this) it runs WAY rich. like 10:1 afr and then bogs a ---- tone

im using 87turbodances VE table and EDS spark table along with EDs afr table. maybe i shouldnt have it like that?

i might invest in paying for tuner studio to get autotune

---------- Post added at 04:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 PM ----------

and the awesome thing is, i have to go to work

i have no second car
noone to drive me

so i just swap back to my stock ecu, fire her right up and she still runs like a champ!

---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

just paid for tunerstudio and megalog viewer. hopefully its worth it to have full versions

[Irocelectric93]

I didn't get megalog viewer full version....however TS's full version is worth it for autotune alone.

[Sundance 6g72]

well it was midnight and i fired her up and had autotune going in tuner studio. It said "o2 out of range" while having a loud backfire every 7 seconds or so.

it was to late and people work in the morning so i decided to wait until tomorrow.

im thinking my timing might be an issue. 30degrees or more at idle. its idling at 1200rpms or so. thats alot of timing imo

---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 AM ----------

87turbodance is using much lower timing than that at idle or even at 1300 rpms

EDs tune that i have has 25 degrees of timing at MIN rpms (like 500 or so)

i dont know why his is like this but could it be causing issues when im trying to start my tune

[Irocelectric93]

Wow 30 degrees is ...quite a bit. Mine is about 15 degrees at idle. Not that mine is perfect by any means. Mine idles pretty well now actually minus my vac leak that i need to fix...i worked 16hrs today or i would have been tuning this evening. Oh well. My car idles a little high... about 1000rpms. Really it should be about 800.

[Sundance 6g72]

i dont have idle control right now so my idle is kind of whack and my iac is open too because i havnt disconnected it properly. wont start and hold an idle either unless i have the throttle screw screwed in alot

im going to try locking the timing at 10* and do what this link says http://www.boostedmiata.com/MS/msq/i...uctions_TS.pdf

youl want to scroll down to where they start talking timine, skip the install crap

[Ondonti]

Seems if you are going to touch up the timing with a light that all you need to do is put it where it belongs in the first place. The motor will run with crazy amounts of timing change in either direction. Get it on the right gears, put it in the middle, then fix it with the light.

My problem was the distributor signal being too weak, I probably should have minimized the wire length the signal had to travel, and tap the signal near the ecu, not the distributor to further reduce extra wiring (ran that resistor trick but it just completely killed the signal). I ditched the OEM tach. No more stock ecu so now I don't care. Does MS3 have a better tach output or is it still not right for our oem tachs?

You should be fine with 10-20 degrees of timing at idle. I would get your base timing perfect, then mess with the tables from there on to get things right.

I have the same Idle problem but probably worse.
What are the AFRs?

BTW, I think Ed's high timing at 500 rpms is meant for starting purposes. They have changed the startup timing methods constantly through out various firmware versions. My version has basically no option and I didn't want to have a column just for starting. I think this is why 87 sundance suggested at one point to run your base timing really high. I don't know if I ever figured out if my firmware version uses base timing or my spark map for starting. Some of the writeups are terribly vague, and the manual often only refers to a certain firmware which is not the same as whatever you have.

[Sundance 6g72]

what should i set the dizzy to when i use the light? i really have never done it before.


why does the crank have to be at 10degrees when im trying to put the dizzy at 10degrees and then finally having MS at 10degrees.

---------- Post added at 10:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 AM ----------

msg from ED about his spark table

I set spark advance by logging while I manually changed spark advance at idle. I then looked at MAP and found about where it peaked and backed it off a little from there. I put the peak value at lower rpm. The idea there is a "stall saver"...

Off peak power you often need more spark advance because the mixture is leaner and thus the flame front spreads slower so you need more advance to get the peak cylinder pressure at the right crank angle...

[c2xejk]

BTW, I think Ed's high timing at 500 rpms is meant for starting purposes. They have changed the startup timing methods constantly through out various firmware versions. My version has basically no option and I didn't want to have a column just for starting. I think this is why 87 sundance suggested at one point to run your base timing really high. I don't know if I ever figured out if my firmware version uses base timing or my spark map for starting. Some of the writeups are terribly vague, and the manual often only refers to a certain firmware which is not the same as whatever you have.

I agree with making sure the timing is what it is supposed to be first.

I mention this in a PM to Sundance6g72, but it bears repeating here. I set idle spark advance based on what my engine liked best.

I set my idle timing by manually stepping the spark advance while logging. Then I found the point where vacuum was highest. I set that advance to 500 RPM and slightly lower to my idle RPM. This can take a couples steps since spark advance can effect engine RPM at idle...

The peak vacuum spark advance is set for 500 RPM instead of idle to act as a "stall saver". If engine rpms dip low, the increase in spark advance should help it return to normal idle. This tactic would probably work a little better if I set spark advance at idle a little lower...

I am still trying to get some dyno time to set the WOT spark advance numbers...

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com

[Sundance 6g72]

im still confused on the whole settings the timing with the dizzy manually.

shouldnt the timing already be set right for the factory computer? and dosnt the dizzy send its advance number to the MS?

im afraid of messing with the dizzy and the timing light because i still want to switch back to my stock ecu when i need to without adverse effects. maybe someone can explain this to me in baby words?

[Sundance 6g72]

well im at a loss with tuning this thing

i have a buddy thats going to get me a timing light but i still need someone to explain to me how to use it and how to get 10btdc on the crank and such.

im going to try and load eds project (i think he has the same firmware as me) and see if it just works right because mine isnt working out at all. If it dosnt work ill have to wait and research some more.

[Sundance 6g72]

well when i went to Eds project and loaded that to the MS it started right up and ran fine so i thought. the rev was laggy but it idles consistently at 900rpms or so but the vacummes was at 18hg on the boost gauge.

i ran autotune but that seemed to make things worse, and turning off ego correction made things worse as well. im done until i get the timing light situation figured out.