Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

[Ondonti]

Just like timing, even plug gap is variable. If you can get away with a big gap, do it. Just don't assume that your plug gap will work, and also don't assume that a small plug gap will solve all problems. I know someone who is running a .019" gap right now and still can't get his misfire to go away. His boost is not real high so that indicates maybe something else is wrong.

Sorta like how Ed is careful with his n/a timing, you have to be more so with boost.
I got real scared when I put that wideband back in and found that my AFR was in the 13's. Glad I never really got on it too much. Not really super dangerous with low boost, low timing, and regapped rings, but still a BAD practice.

If you want to, feel free to remove half a degree of timing per psi of boost and use that as your safe starting point.
Some people say 1 degree per pound of boost, but they are usually talking about cars that alreayd make 15 pounds of boost and want to increase timing, plus they are often wrong. If you remove 1 degree of timing/psi and run 30psi, you would only have 8 degrees of total advance. That is not going to work well (crazy egt's plus its a 2 valve head that needs more timing).
Running -4 degrees of timing at 8psi will be very very safe.

[c2xejk]

Pure gas will increase your MPG. Rumors I am hearing indicate that e85 will increase power. ~5% gain because it is oxygenated...

Ed Kelly - www.kmperformance.com

[Force Fed Mopar]

You need to add a crapload more fuel to run E85. Like, 45% more. Your mileage will drop a lot. You can crank the hell out of the timing though

[Sundance 6g72]

that much fuel huh? my 33 might handle it out of boost but thats ALOT for when in boost

damn.

[Force Fed Mopar]

You will definitely need bigger injectors for E85.

[Ondonti]

Supposed to be about 30% more fuel.
The accurate way would be to test your local E85 using the test tube technique. Then when you know the % of gasoline/Ethanol, then you look at Stoich for gasoline and Ethanol and do the math yourself.

The thing about MS is that you can either modify your injectors using a fuel injector calculator, or modify the AFR #
I would prefer to tell the truth about the injector size and then change the AFR #. I think mine is like 10point something or 11 I don't remember. When I first did it I calculated the injector difference myself. It doesn't really matter, require fuel #'s will be the same.

I am also assuming 91 octane or higher fuel.

[Force Fed Mopar]

It may be different for different engines and compressions. But for my 2.2 turbo, I had to add about 45% fuel for e85.

[Ondonti]

I am using perverted E70 type numbers which is winter/high elevation mix.

http://injector-rehab.com/shop/e85_injector_size.html
Now I have no idea how I will meet my goals with the ID1000 injectors I wanted.
ID2000 are way too big and way too expensive.

[RoadWarrior222]

BTW. my 3.0 seems to like a bit of ethanol, mpg seemed to go up with the switch to E10, by about 10%. Conversely it seemed to drop in the Escort.

[87turbodance]

With MS you can run one of those GM or Ford flex fuel sensors that will measure the amount of alcohol in the fuel and MS can adjust accordingly on the fly.

http://www.megamanual.com/flexfuel.htm

[RoadWarrior222]

Welllll, that thing is full of readers pablum type factish info, that is sorta accurate for given values of accurate.... For instance FFV vehicles are likely to be higher compression engines that are running "detuned" on 87 regular, and are then able to utilise the octane in E85, rather than expecting a blanket 5% HP gain in any motor.... Then also neither methanol or ethanol are directly corrosive, they have decomposition products that can be corrosive, that tend to happen more when they are contaminated, or when they come into contact with freshly exposed catalytic metals that haven't been deactivated by oxidation or other methods. The formic acid and formaldehyde problem is only really the same as the nitric acid and NOx problem... it happens when it ain't working right. Then there's political bias that gets into these things, methanol is made out to be nastier than it is, because even though it would be cheaper to produce from biomass than ethanol, it's even cheaper to produce from natural gas, therefore the gas/oil industry can easily undercut "green methanol" pricing.... hence, no greenies back it, and there's a load of half truths spread around to justify this.

edit: oh yah, the farmers will never be behind methanol either, because it can be made from virtually any bio-waste, you could mow the sides of the roads to make it, how can they make money off that?

[Sundance 6g72]

i wonder if there is an equation to see how much e85 i can mix with my 93octrane without maxing my injectors, with 8psi..

[Force Fed Mopar]

Just buy bigger injectors and be done with it Not like you won't need them.

[Sundance 6g72]

well dr shred (other site) is using 30# with pump gas on 12psi i believe and hes been fine. this is with a RRR to, no megasquirt.

[Force Fed Mopar]

If you aren't gonna use E85, then you may be fine.

[Sundance 6g72]

Just like timing, even plug gap is variable. If you can get away with a big gap, do it. Just don't assume that your plug gap will work, and also don't assume that a small plug gap will solve all problems. I know someone who is running a .019" gap right now and still can't get his misfire to go away. His boost is not real high so that indicates maybe something else is wrong.

Sorta like how Ed is careful with his n/a timing, you have to be more so with boost.
I got real scared when I put that wideband back in and found that my AFR was in the 13's. Glad I never really got on it too much. Not really super dangerous with low boost, low timing, and regapped rings, but still a BAD practice.

If you want to, feel free to remove half a degree of timing per psi of boost and use that as your safe starting point.
Some people say 1 degree per pound of boost, but they are usually talking about cars that alreayd make 15 pounds of boost and want to increase timing, plus they are often wrong. If you remove 1 degree of timing/psi and run 30psi, you would only have 8 degrees of total advance. That is not going to work well (crazy egt's plus its a 2 valve head that needs more timing).
Running -4 degrees of timing at 8psi will be very very safe.

didnt see this earlier.

so does anyone know the max advance for the stock computer?

if i leave ED's table as is, ill be hitting a max of 31* at any boost. i still dont even know how to tune for boost. my ve table barrely goes over 1bar.. 8psi will be a little more than 1.5bar im assuming without doing the math.


im starting to think e85 is not my thing.. not that i planned on running it but if i was going all out it would be a no brainer. now meth injection on the other hand.. if its not expensive maybe i can run that and set it up to inject water/meth when im full throttle? just thinking theoreticaly

[Force Fed Mopar]

I want to say the stock computer limits advance to 52 or 54. Not sure though. On the 4-cyl it's 52 I think, never looked at the V6.

[Sundance 6g72]

lol, im sure its completely different

[Ondonti]

12 degrees if base + 26 degrees of electronic advance. So 38 degrees of total advance is the OEM. That means 34 degrees @ 8psi on the .5 degrees per psi boost starting point. Very Conservative.
You can also try to remove a little extra timing around the RPM's where your torque peaks (right around the time you hit full boost). Then you can add more as your torque drops off.
Start safe first.
I ran 46 degrees (26 degrees advance, 20 base) on the 7.0:1 motor on 91 octane with 2500cc's of methanol on 20 pounds of boost. That was too much timing and didn't help power over 42 degrees. I was fighting spark breakout on the dyno so we forgot about the timing and left it. Problem with ghetto fuel setups is that you run the same timing regardless of boost level. All that timing worked great at lower boost levels.
8 pounds of boost and 34 degrees is safe.

[bond_bbs]

Well, isn't that how many anti-lag solutions (not the professional rally type) work? I swear I read somewhere that they jack the timing up while out of boost / building boost so that exhaust temps rise quickly to help spool much faster.