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Thread: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

  1. #201
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadWarrior222 View Post
    I guess the important thing is that with our setups, it's unpossible to subtract timing from the base dizzy setting, so as long as your diz is not advanced further than the lowest total timing needed anywhere, you can just set up your map accordingly. BUT don't do it blindly, know what you have it set to, otherwise if your bolt rattles loose you're screwed, or you try to reproduce it on a new or rebuilt motor, you're screwed, you publish your setup online for people to try, and they're screwed ... ... ...
    Actually, ignore this, I'm thinking about a different system I think. We've got it knowing "crank" (But actually cam) angle by a high res optical encoder, it can do whatever it likes, but like '87td says best to match trigger angle...

    ... though there's gotta be some limits on advance on this, the dizzy rotor is only so fat, and the spark can only jump so far, or you're firing the last cylinder instead of the next.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  2. #202
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    I was talking about actual spark advance while starting.

    Why does it matter to you if your trigger angle lines up with a terminal?

    The reason that I see to have base timing at zero or less would be to achieve a more harsh Antilag effect. I believe it only sets down as far as -5 degrees and I don't know if it can actually pull timing like that, plus my base is 12.
    For me its not a problem to have timing missing from my map. I don't think about it in absolute terms, just relative terms to the nearbye spots. Just means I can't share numbers without adding to them.
    All timing is based off the trigger angle except starting if you are using trigger return. MS gets the trigger signal which occurs at the trigger angle which is typically about 60-80 degrees. Ms then then calculates how much time it has to wait, based on the current rpm, before firing the coil at the correct advance.

    Having trigger angles and return angles line with with a terminal matters if you have rotated the distributor to achieve a trigger angle of, say, 100 degrees. Doing this also rotates the distributor cap but not the rotor so the rotor may not be close enough to the cap terminal at 10 degrees or maybe 45 degrees so the spark can't get the terminal or maybe goes to the wrong terminal

  3. #203
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    cheep valve spring compessor seriously bent before it could undo the retainer. We got 2 valves out to night

    also, does it matter if the valves go back into the same cyl that they came out of?

  4. #204
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by 87turbodance View Post
    All timing is based off the trigger angle except starting if you are using trigger return. MS gets the trigger signal which occurs at the trigger angle which is typically about 60-80 degrees. Ms then then calculates how much time it has to wait, based on the current rpm, before firing the coil at the correct advance.

    Having trigger angles and return angles line with with a terminal matters if you have rotated the distributor to achieve a trigger angle of, say, 100 degrees. Doing this also rotates the distributor cap but not the rotor so the rotor may not be close enough to the cap terminal at 10 degrees or maybe 45 degrees so the spark can't get the terminal or maybe goes to the wrong terminal
    But setting the actual timing advance during starting..........Obviously MS is just guessing when to ignite since RPM's is probably not very accurate at that point. Some firmwares I have seen have an actual input for starting advance.

    BTW, just like I can't share timing maps without a concession, you can't exactly share things when you are the only one with a modified distributor.

    I do have interest in where the rotor is to the terminal in comparison to total timing advance. I would rather stick with 12 degrees whether or not I include that in the trigger offset. I don't know how critical it is to have high resolution setups for timing because the only downside I can think of is a lack of timing, not too much timing. If the ECU is lagging behind actual rpms slightly, its just going to fire slightly later then intended. The end result would be no different because the process @ WOT would be repeatable, and so would the lag. The only real difference would be a boosted motor changing power levels, and at that point you still run different timing for each load level.
    I do want to do anything I can to keep my distributor. Still hoping Brian gets that knock box done.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

  5. #205
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundance 6g72 View Post
    cheep valve spring compessor seriously bent before it could undo the retainer. We got 2 valves out to night

    also, does it matter if the valves go back into the same cyl that they came out of?
    Generally, at least from how I've been taught and do it, it's best to keep the valves matched to where they came out of. If the heads / valves have worn any, they will have worn together.

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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    If you want to stay with stock springs AND are running megasquirt then do it. If you are not MS then don't replace the springs. 190,000 mile springs with a huge cam still don't float until around just before 7000 rpms for me. Motor justs starts to mess up as it hits 7k for me when I had that set of heads temporarilly in my Duster.
    Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56

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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundance 6g72 View Post
    cheep valve spring compessor seriously bent before it could undo the retainer. We got 2 valves out to night

    also, does it matter if the valves go back into the same cyl that they came out of?
    I would not put the heads back on unless I had a complete rebuild on them, including a valve job. Just take the heads to a good machine shop and let them do everything, not that much money and less hassle, and you'll have peace of mind about them.
    Rob M.
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  8. #208
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by bond_bbs View Post
    Generally, at least from how I've been taught and do it, it's best to keep the valves matched to where they came out of. If the heads / valves have worn any, they will have worn together.
    Yup, grab a cereal box, jab 2 rows of 6 holes in the side with a pencil, stick 'em in, number them, take one out at a time to clean up or whatever, then they don't get mixed up.
    DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!

  9. #209
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    If you want to stay with stock springs AND are running megasquirt then do it. If you are not MS then don't replace the springs. 190,000 mile springs with a huge cam still don't float until around just before 7000 rpms for me. Motor justs starts to mess up as it hits 7k for me when I had that set of heads temporarilly in my Duster.
    i figured as much. i get valve float a little after 7000 with my 94xxx mile heads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    I would not put the heads back on unless I had a complete rebuild on them, including a valve job. Just take the heads to a good machine shop and let them do everything, not that much money and less hassle, and you'll have peace of mind about them.
    Well thats money i dont have in the budget. right now im just trying to stop the oil leak from what i think is a dropped valve guide.

    the heads going on are just to stop the oil, the heads coming off will be cleaned up, ported, cammed, new stiffer valve springs with locks and retainers (the works) but this is also when i can the money to do so. Ed will be the one i have do it if anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadWarrior222 View Post
    Yup, grab a cereal box, jab 2 rows of 6 holes in the side with a pencil, stick 'em in, number them, take one out at a time to clean up or whatever, then they don't get mixed up.
    thats what ive been doing.

    ---------- Post added at 10:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------

    valve guides, how the hell do i get them out?

  10. #210
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    But setting the actual timing advance during starting..........Obviously MS is just guessing when to ignite since RPM's is probably not very accurate at that point. Some firmwares I have seen have an actual input for starting advance.

    BTW, just like I can't share timing maps without a concession, you can't exactly share things when you are the only one with a modified distributor.

    I do have interest in where the rotor is to the terminal in comparison to total timing advance. I would rather stick with 12 degrees whether or not I include that in the trigger offset. I don't know how critical it is to have high resolution setups for timing because the only downside I can think of is a lack of timing, not too much timing. If the ECU is lagging behind actual rpms slightly, its just going to fire slightly later then intended. The end result would be no different because the process @ WOT would be repeatable, and so would the lag. The only real difference would be a boosted motor changing power levels, and at that point you still run different timing for each load level.
    I do want to do anything I can to keep my distributor. Still hoping Brian gets that knock box done.
    It's not specific firmwares that allow for setting a specific cranking timing it's an option call "trigger return" that you can choose instead of "basic trigger". This will set the cranking spark to occur when the trigger returns (turn off). The trigger from the 3.0 dizzy last 55 or 65 crank degrees depending on if you trigger using the hole or the filled in par of the pickup. To get trigger return to work, you need to make sure that either the start of a hole or the end of a hole (in the trigger wheel) lines up with about 10 btdc and then turn on "trigger return" and figure out what the trigger angle is going to be.

  11. #211

    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    If you are not going to do a valve job, definitely keep them in order. Cheap valve spring compressors don't work well, especially with stiffer springs. That is why the one I have is made of square tubing and has a long handle...

    If you are talking about removing the guide seals, they make a special pair of pliers for removing them. You can use regular slip-joint pliers. Do the brute force pull and twist. If you are talking about the guides, then I have been told that you can use threaded rod to pull them out and press the new ones in. That said, I haven't tried that...

  12. #212
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Yeah don't smear too much grease. Just put a small amount but not enough to squeeze into the inside of the turbine housing and you'll be fine. I use a little grease when putting tires on actually. Tire shops would tell me "NOOOO" and that i'll break down the rubber etc. but i find a minimal amount doesn't effect tire life and seals the rim nicely. Just food for thought. As for all the firmware nonsense....i had some firmware issues at first with my MS actually. I called DIY and apparently i had somehow put an "experimental" firmware on mine when i first got it because i could NOT get TS to communicate with my MS for some reason. Funny how i got that firmware off DIY's site if i remember right. Problem solved with newer firmware. Wow...got off on a tangent there. Sorry Joe.

  13. #213
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by c2xejk View Post
    If you are not going to do a valve job, definitely keep them in order. Cheap valve spring compressors don't work well, especially with stiffer springs. That is why the one I have is made of square tubing and has a long handle...

    If you are talking about removing the guide seals, they make a special pair of pliers for removing them. You can use regular slip-joint pliers. Do the brute force pull and twist. If you are talking about the guides, then I have been told that
    you can use threaded rod to pull them out and press the new ones in. That said, I haven't tried that...
    im 99% sure i have valve GUIDES (and guide seals) in my headgasket set. ill have to check later

    so i need to remove the valve guide seals and valve guides. i want to remove everything from the heads so i can clean them up nicely

    now im on the hunt for a nice spring compressor again...

  14. #214

    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)



    Valve guide like what is shown above. The are usually only removed for replacement and are sold separately from gasket sets...

    Ed Kelly

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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    Quote Originally Posted by Irocelectric93 View Post
    Sorry Joe.
    its cool man, the more info in my thread the better

    ---------- Post added at 09:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 PM ----------

    dammit, i swear i read that the guides where included.

    i did buy valve stem seals.

    the guides honestly look good but im not chancing it.. ill have to buy new ones.

    edit: ed, are you able to get me a deal or should i go to autozone?

  16. #216

    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    If you replace the guides, then you should have a valve job done. The stem bore can be slightly off center which will cause the valve to not seal correctly...

    Ed

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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    GRAWW

    new direction then. I turbocharge the car as is for now. I take my spare heads and get them ported, valve job, cams, etc. Money for this is not there right now but thats why its for future not current.

    Ill do my injectors today, fuel pump when the tank gets really low on gas and then we'll do the clutch. Once thats done the car will be ready for the crossover and turbo, intercooler, oil lines etc.

    if this sounds like a terrible idea, then please say so. The oil burning is not bad to the point of frustration.. its just kind of inconvenient but im not going to swap heads that "might" be good just have them burn oil too. ill do it right the first time.

  18. #218
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    If you can live with the oil smoke, I'd do that and have the spare heads redone. I do not recommend trying to do a backyard valve and guide job at all.

    ill do it right the first time.
    That's the spirit It is hard to come off the hip for it I agree, but's it much better than doing it twice. Shouldn't be more than about 250-300 to have both heads completely rebuilt w/ new guides and seals. Maybe less if you disassemble and wash them, the less labor the machine shop has to do the cheaper it is. You can pressure wash the bare heads w/ Purple Power or similar and get them good and clean. This is what many shops do anyway (the acid used to clean iron heads will eat aluminum).
    Rob M.
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  19. #219
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    i plan on taking them completely apart and soaking them in a cooler full of purple power then pressure washing them

    then ill talk to ed about having them done. porting might not be needed but a mild cam and some springs along with a full rebuild will be my min.

    ill be back later, attempting to install the injectors right now

  20. #220
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    Re: Sundance 6g72 "3.0 turbo build thread"(N/A DYNO SHEET pics inside)

    injectors are in.. just need to reinstall the plenum.

    gas spilled all over so i need to let that evaporate!!

    ill set tuner studio from 19# to 33#s and see where that brings me.

    one question, should i be able to see the orings that seal the injector to the lower intake? i have the rail fastend down tight and i can see the oring.. looks like its sealing but you never know.

    also, the injectors are a little shorter than the stock units.. hope this dosnt cause an issue...

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