so it sounds like i dont need to worry about my timing numbers being wrong. if the table says 50, its 50
so it sounds like i dont need to worry about my timing numbers being wrong. if the table says 50, its 50
I don't know of any Megasquirt that uses base timing plus table timing unless it is setup incorrectly. Whatever advance is currently displayed in MS is the correct current advance unless the trigger angle is wrong. The trigger angle needs to be correct so that MS has a starting pint to work from and all advance is calculated from there.
I run the oldest practical version of MS (MS1) and it operates the same as all the newer versions but less accuracy because of the older, slower processor.
You can operate MS on the basis of base advance + table advance but you are basically setting it up with the wrong trigger angle info.
Originally Posted by Ondonti
I'm not trying to be a dink but what you say here makes no sense to me.
The firmware confusion comes from the firmware split between vanilla MS2, MS2Extra and differences between MS2Extra and MS1Extra. This results in conflicting info if you don't look for your documentation all in one place.
www.msextra.com deals exclusively with MS1Extra, MS2Extra and MS3
www.msefi.com deals with vanilla MS2.
To add confusion, there are a lot of MS1 and MS1Extra documentation floating around. Don't use google searches to find info because it will all be different depending on firmware, the documentation found, is for.
For best results, stick with MS2Extra or MS3 using the latest firmware revision.
www.msextra.com deals exclusively with MS1Extra, MS2Extra and MS3 - stick with one of these three firmwares and use the latest version. There is also a forum found at MSExtra.com as well that deals wit the Extra firmwares and MS3.
should i upgrade from 2.1.0 to 3.0 MSII firmware then? i havnt had any MS related issues that i know of
I'd recommend upgrading. You might need to fine tune your tune a bit after upgrading.
what would the benefit of upgrading be? ill do some research n a second but you seem to know more than i do even when i have the internet to my disposal O.o
so i dont work on sunday and its also a bi week for paintball... this means i need to do something productive with the car.
how should i go about changing my injectors? i have new injector seals in my headgasket set.
do i need to remove the lower intake to get the injectors out? im thinking i dont but ive never done it and cant remember how the stealth worked when i pulled its intake apart.
once they are in, do i just change the fuel injector size in megasquirt and call it a day or will my tune still be off?
going from 19s to 33s seems like a big jump and im kind if worried about idle.
You shoudl only need to unbolt the rail from the lower intake, pull the injectors, put the new orings on your new injectors, a drop of oil on each oring will help them slide into the rail and lower intake easier. Just becareful as you don't want to knock any crap into the injectors holes.
A shop vac and air gun can help prevent that. Gunk does like to build up around the lower injector orings, so just take your time.
I don't mean to be a dink but there are a million versions each of those firmwares. Each one can be vastly different. EVERY release I have tried has changed things massively, and the manual never gets completely updated to match any one firmware completely. Since you don't actually have MS2 I can understand you not experiencing this. They were coming out with new firmwares every month for awhile, and the firmware changes were big. Do I need to remind you that there are functions they have in the software that years later are still not supported (knock sensor stuff).
Some versions of MS2 allow you to set a starting timing advance. Some versions do not. MS2 extra does not. MS2Extra upgrade was very little help to me because it just got farther away from what the manual was talking about. Setting up idle control was terrible because there was no info about what any of the fields meant and the manual was full of old info.
Megasquirt is an endless college undergraduate project, not a true business venture.
MS1 is a whole different can of worms. MS2 was never fully supported as far as I am concerned. They never finished whatever they were doing with it and just moved on to MS3. MS1 is something that they "finished."
It doesn't really matter if you lie to MS about base timing. My map is 12 degrees less then actual. I could care less about trigger angle if it runs right and has the timing advance I want. I run batch fire because I only have one functional driver so there is no reason to worry about injector timing. Only problem I ever have is AIS and the awesome manual did not support the firmware at the time I was messing with it.
Last edited by Ondonti; 07-22-2011 at 04:22 AM.
Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56
I guess the important thing is that with our setups, it's unpossible to subtract timing from the base dizzy setting, so as long as your diz is not advanced further than the lowest total timing needed anywhere, you can just set up your map accordingly. BUT don't do it blindly, know what you have it set to, otherwise if your bolt rattles loose you're screwed, or you try to reproduce it on a new or rebuilt motor, you're screwed, you publish your setup online for people to try, and they're screwed ... ... ...
DD1: '02 T&C Ltd, 3.8 AWD. DD2: '15 Versa Note SV, replacing.. DDx: '14 Versa Note SV << freshly killded :( ....... Projects: '88 Voyager 3.0, Auto with shift kit, timing advance, walker sound FX muffler on 15" pumpers wrapped in 215/65/R15 H rated Nexens.... and a '95 phord escort wagon PnP head << Both may need to go :( ..... I like 3.0s ... so??? ... stop looking at me like I've got two heads!
Are you taking about the stock setup or with MS?
In terms of MS, it's best to set the MS so that the trigger angle of the pickup matches what you tell MS so that ignition advance is accurate and if other people look at your table they can use your numbers and they will be accurate. That's what your saying right? For the sake of simplicity, have an accurate trigger angle setup.
I don't tun it on a daily basis simply because I don't have the budget for it. I have built a number of MS2 and a MS3 boxes and have run them on my car for a week each. I have experienced the different firmwares but I always skip vanilla MS2 and go straight to Extra.
I find that extra has a better manual then the vanilla firmwares. It's all at www.msextra.com Be sure to use the most recent firmware version.
MS1 had the same long history of firmware changes and upgrades that MS2 has. The documentation is usually behind the firmware so the best place to find info is the MSextra.com forums for up-to-date info. MS1 is only "finished" because MS2 came out. Just like MS2 is only "finished" because MS3 came out. The same group of people have done MS1Extra, MS2Extra and MS3. The keep moving on because the previous platform runs out abilities. B&G, the original Ms creators, aren't involved to much anymore and just "oversee the project" as far as I can tell.
Personally, I'd like my timing map to be accurate so that I don;t have to keep adding 12 degrees to anything in my logs. Why not just increase your trigger angle by 12 degrees so that the number make sense?
I don't get the no timing at cranking thing? The only setup I can think of that sounds similar to what your thinking is "trigger return" instead of "basic trigger" for distributor ignition setups. Trigger return works with hall-effect and optical trigger setups and allows for using the trigger return as a signal for firing the ignition coil when cranking. This gives better craning timing accuracy on engines that don;t have a consistent rpm when cranking. This requires that your trigger return angle lines up with a good advance angle for cranking rpm like 10 degrees.
To me you just sound bitter about something do with MS. The info is all out there; I agree that it is hard to find if you don't know where to look.
Anyway, I just want to make sure that people now where to look for info in the future.
Make sure that you're running MS2Extra or MS3 - DON'T run vanilla MS2
All info can be found at www.msextra.com
Ryan
now im confused a little bit. i bought mine from diy http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...nit-p-165.html
not sure if its ms2 extra or not.
could my hard starting be caused by using a basic trigger setup? (its not bad but its deff not optimal, always starts but has a little trouble)
and lastly, is my ignition map spot on or off? i did what ed said... so maybe our setups are off? if i set a fixed angle of 10* in MS, my timing light reads 10*
lets play nice fellas
Since we are on spark advance, Ryan I think you mentioned a while back that you had redrilled the hole for the rotor (~50 degrees off.) I assume this was to reduce the trigger angle. What is the benifit of doing this? ie. increased accuracy of the delivered spark angle?
Thanks
Ed Kelly
I did this to so I could use trigger return instead of basic trigger. Without moving the rotor I found that I couldn't achieve a trigger angle that also allowed the rotor to line up with the cap terminal correctly. I have MS1 which doesn't allow me to change the trigger between rising edge or falling edge. MS2 and newer has this capability which might make it so that this mods is not needed. At this found I have a crank wheel made pf 1/4" bolts and I have a dizzy installed that is only used to distribute the spark from a single coil.
I believe the duration of the trigger in the dizzy is either 55 degrees or 60 degrees depending on if you trigger on the rising or falling edge (use the gap or the filled in section of the pickup wheel as the trigger). You would need either a trigger angle of 65 or 75 degrees to achieve the trigger return angle of 10 degrees needed for trigger return cranking.
Using trigger return, you can change the ignition delay from the default 3 to 0 cycles which makes for quicker starts. Trigger return cranking also has a more accurate cranking spark angle when used with an engine that doesn't turn over at a consistent rpm (ie small number cylinders and/or high compression)
Joe,
What ed had you do is correct. Your spark angle should be correct. Trigger return instead of basic trigger might give faster starts but it can be a bit more troublesome to setup. You might also be too rich or lean on your prime pulse or cranking PW. It can take a lot of time to fine tune these for quick starts
---------- Post added at 01:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 PM ----------
I don't know what firmware DIY ships loaded on their boards. It's easy to flash to a newer version if you have a PC with a serial port and a straight through m/f cable. Flashing with a USB/serial adapter can hit and miss.
well im 99% sure ed and i have the same firmware and so im going to keep mine as is until after drag week. Last thing we need is for his megasquirt to go down and mine not accepting his tune due to a newer firmware.
reason i think ED has the same firmware as me is because im running his tune with no issues (other than me having to change the ve table and other basic settings to fit my car)
ill take some time out to work on the priming pulse and cranking pulse
ryan, youve been some great help as has everyone else. Thank you for your patients and helping getting me to where i am now.
Looking at what you sent me, you have MS2Extra 2.1p
I'm happy to help.
looks like i might have a valve spring compressor coming my way soon.. once the heads are rebuilt, i really wont have a reason to not be turbocharged
the new heads are being cleaned right now. i have one rocker assembly completely cleaned up along with both cams and cam gears cleaned up.
Just need to clean both heads and the other rocker assembly. Then i need to pick up some head bolts, order some oil lines and a T3 gasket. i have them sitting in my cart on amazon but never got around to ordering.
Head bolts? Unless the stock ones are damaged, you can reuse them. They are not TTY. On the T3 gasket, I just use some wheel bearing grease. Smokes a little at start up, but then crystallizes and seals the joint.
Ed Kelly
I was talking about actual spark advance while starting.
Why does it matter to you if your trigger angle lines up with a terminal?
The reason that I see to have base timing at zero or less would be to achieve a more harsh Antilag effect. I believe it only sets down as far as -5 degrees and I don't know if it can actually pull timing like that, plus my base is 12.
For me its not a problem to have timing missing from my map. I don't think about it in absolute terms, just relative terms to the nearbye spots. Just means I can't share numbers without adding to them.
Brent GREAT DEPRESSION RACING 1992 Duster 3.0T The Junkyard - MS II, OEM 10:1 -[I] Old - 11.5@125 22psi $90 [U]Stock[/U] 3.0 Junk Motor - 1 bar MAP [/I] 1994 Spirit 3.0T - 11.5@120 20 psi - Daily :eyebrows: Holset He351 -FT600 - 393whp 457ft/lb @18psi 1994 Spirit 3.0T a670 - He341, stock fuel, BEGI. Wife's into kid's project. 1990 Lebaron Coupe 2.2 TI/II non IC, a413 1990 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1993 Spirit 3.0 E.S. 41TE -- 1994 Duster 3.0 A543 1981 Starlet KP61 Potential driver -- 1981 Starlet KP61 Parts -- 1983 Starlet KP61 Drag 2005 Durango Hemi Limited -- 1998 Dodge 12v 47re. AFC mods, No plate, Mack plug, Boost elbow -- 2011 Dodge 6.7 G56
good to know.
what about valve springs? The heads i have seem to have been rebuilt? is it normal to rebuild with new valve springs? i dont plan on buying new but some of my friends who think they know what they are talking about tell me to buy new springs.
wheel bearing grease sounds like a winner but id assume id have to be careful not to get it to smear into the turbo and get sucked though?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote