FWD Performance, Inc. takes advantage of Vietnam War Vet

[moly man]

Over a year and a half ago, Cindy at FWD Performance in Spring, Texas, sold me a rebuilt 1989 Turbo 2.5L Engine with Hi Performance parts. After shipping my final cost was $5316. The engine was delivered to a competent garage in Sandy, Utah, to be installed in my '88 Dodge Caravan for a cost of $3500. The motor was already fully assembled by FWD Performance and the shop was only responsible for swapping the engine. They did not need to be intimately familiar with the engine in order to complete the job. Once the new motor was running the garage told me that it was experiencing an overheating issue. Since the engine was supposedly built by a company that specializes in these vehicles all suspicion was directed at the radiator and other non-motor components. The shop did what they could and contacted me to come and get my van.

I picked my '88 Caravan and the very next day the engine overheated. The turbo failed immediately after that. Black smoke came out the exhaust and oil came out of the engine and into the exhaust system, catalytic converter, and muffler.

After waiting for the engine to be built shipped and then installed it was very frustrating to be without a vehicle again. I decided to bring it to a Chrysler dealership since they are more familiar with these vehicles. I took the van to Larry Miller Chrysler for repairs. I had to buy a second Rebuilt Mitsubishi turbo from Cindy even though the first was under warranty (???) and it was shipped next day air $$$$. Larry Miller Dodge charged me $4000 to repair the vehicle. The Caravan drove for a couple of weeks and progressively got worse until the FWD Performance engine finally seized up. At this point the whole project had cost more than $12,816 and I still had a dead engine with only a couple hundred miles on it.

Eventually, we found out the reason why the engine was overheating and eventually seized. It was because the water pump housing was the wrong year for the water pump pulley. Essentially, the water pump/pulley that the "Experts" at FWD Performance installed and sent to me was mismatched and was trying to pump the water BACKWARDS! This is not something that either the first shop or the dealership would have caught and I don't blame them for the problem. All the parts looked correct from the outside and there was no reason for them to think that FWDP would make such a simple mistake.

Cindy at FWD Performance also sold me a Quaife Limited Slip Differential for $1500. She failed to include a very important spacer which is needed to install it in my A-413 Automatic transmission. The Quaife unit is worthless without that spacer. She provided me with excuse after excuse and we could not wait any longer for the spacer to arrive so we had to rebuild my transmission without the Quaife unit. When I asked her to take back the Quaife due to not receiving the spacer, she refused and said it was a special order.

She also charged me for a Fidanza Adjustable cam gear which was not on the engine or ever shipped to me.

Over the last 1.5 years Cindy has made and broken promises and never did get my engine issue resolved. To this date I have received $0 financial compensation and very little technical support after the sale. This issue prevented me from having the ability to get around. I am a disabled Vietnam War Vet and I depend solely on my '88 Dodge Caravan to get me to the VA hospital for treatments and to complete my daily chores. The van is equipped with a scooter loader in the back which is the only way I can get around. When my vehicle is not running I am forced to rent a vehicle or contact an ambulance service to transport me to the hospital.

In the end I have suffered a significant financial loss for dealing with FWD Performance in Spring, Texas. I have added up my repair costs below:

$5316 - FWD "Performance" Engine rebuild
$3500 - First Engine Installation
$350 - Second Turbo
$4000 - Second Engine/Turbo Repair/Installation (dealership)
$3500 - Fresh Turbos Unleashed Performance Engine Rebuild and Installation
$1500 - Quaife LSD (The List Price $1362.18. Why was I charged more?)
$1500 - Transporting my Van to Turbos Unleashed Repair Facility in AZ
$19,666 TOTAL COSTS TO ME

This excludes additional costs which I haven't even calculated in yet. Ambulance transport, rental car fees, etc. etc. etc.

I originally came to FWD Performance because Cindy told us how knowledgeable they were with these cars, but it was their incompetence and the failure to make things right with me that cost me money, transportation and time. My numerous calls and voice messages to her have gone unanswered. Essentially, she has turned her back on me and has made no attempt to resolve this longstanding issue. Did Cindy take advantage of the fact that I am an older man and was not internet savvy? Now that I figured this internet thing out I want to let everyone know what happened to me. Let this be a warning to others.

Dennis L.
Salt Lake City, UT

[BadAssPerformance]

I can't believe anyone would spend that kind of money to begin with on a 1988 minivan. I really have no sympathy.

EVERYONE, Please read the "Feedback" Rules at the top of this page. Thank you.

....Each thread is between the two parties involved, no one else. This means that you should share your dealings within your own thread. Irrelevant posts will be deleted as any of the staff see fit and without warning!

[Ubmbass]

I do understand the rules JT, but I would like to extend my help if needed in this case. If this truly is a real case, I will be full willing to take a look at the van and see if there are any options for him. I live is SLC.

[glhs727]

OK, first off this happened 3 years ago, although I would have to go through a lot of invoices to get the exact date. I'm not sure why 3 years later this comes out of the blue! The motor was built by Kevin Cagle, who worked in our shop at the time, and had built several motors for us, along with lots of other motors in his career. He is a trained Chrysler tech, and an avid TD enthusiast. His omni run 10's and he is highly competent. I have zero doubt that he did a good job on this build. The install shop robbed this guy, charging him $3500 to install a near turnkey motor. We offered to do the install in OUR shop, but he said he had a shop there that would do the install. The customer even stated that the install shop found a small water leak, FIXED it and charged him for it. It may have been the water pump, IDK but it was told to us well after the fact. The customer did tell me he drove the car, it got hot, and he kept driving. He then had the car towed to Larry Miller. I talked to the tech who told me between the sorry job the install guys did, and the customer driving the car and overheated it until it died- that things were fubared. I then posted up on the forums for someone in the SLC area to go to Larry Miller and check it out. I talked to Umbass, Tyler and Cory about taking a look at it, and give the owner an opinion. I think Umbass might remember that... I also remember that AFTER the dealership charged him $4000 to fix the install guy's fiasco and redo his motor/turbo, the customer ran the car out of oil resulting in locking up the motor etc... At that point, I told hin there wasn't much we could do, he should talk to the dealership since they were the last ones in the motor etc.. As far as the quaife goes, I doubt I refused to take it back if it still new in the box, and yes, you need a spacer for an a413 install, but we never said a spacer was included. When you decide to buy a quaiffe and use it in a a413, I told him about needing a spacer. He didn't want to listen or wait. BTW, I have spacers now.....
Anyway, I'm not sure why this has come up 3 years later (but I think I know the motivation behind dragging us in the mud, but I will keep that to myself...), and I'm not sure how we are at fault since the install shop charged and supposedly fixed the only issue (water leak) that was encountered when installed. Then a second player does a rebuild/repair that is also blown up. If you drive a car overheating until he dies, and then run a motor out of oil and drive until it dies on the side of the road.....

[glhs727]

BTW, I never refused to help the guy. I told him if he could get the car to us, we would help him out. I also contacted several members in the SLC area, asking for help for this guy. I talked to him for hours via phone, and also through email, and hadn't even heard from him well over a year or more. I do symphathise with him being disabled, and do repsect his military service, but there is only some much that we can do. I think his beef should be with the original shop in Sandy, and sadly, his own negligence in regards to driving until it died, if it was having issues.

here is the thread where I asked if any locals could help:
http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f1/...lake-city.html

[A.J.]

This is the reason why the engine overheated. A common block water pump with a non-common block water pump pulley. I took these pictures in August of 2010.







The removal/install of this job was sublet to me. I removed the engine, it got picked it up and then one was brought back to me. This pulley did not go back on the engine.

When I do a engine job, I have a disclaimer that I have customers read, out loud, and sign stating things like oil changes need to be performed, the engine can't be over heated, or driven into the ground. I think the customer has an obligation to to shut the engine down if something isn't right. Likewise, the shop/technician has an obligation that the vehicle is running properly before it gets returned to the customer.

A.J.

[glhs727]

We did not install the accesary pulleys and belts. That was done by the install shop.

[glhs727]

I shipped the motor, and after that it was all Dennis and the shop in Sandy UT he took it too. I agree on the install shop making sure all is good before giving it to the customer. When we do installs, we always check for leaks, etc... wait for the car to come to temp, make sure the fans are kicking on, temps are good, and then we test drive, on the dyno and on the street to make sure nothing weird is going on before we let the customer take it home. We just did a motor build on an srt-4. I told that customer, if there were any issues please call right away, and also come by the shop at 2000 miles and we would do some diagnostics, and good look over to make sure everything was fine. That was a week ago, and he called today to let us know all is good but it might be a few weeks before the 2000 mile check-up because he doesn't drive the car everyday.

[Ubmbass]

I do remember this Cindy. I did call the guy once and no one answered when I called. I figured this was over with, someone had taken care of the issue is why he didn't answer. If he still needs help, I would be happy to run over and see what's possible with what he has left.

This is a sad situation, seems like this poor guy got screwed pretty badly by someone who wasn't very familiar with our cars. Simple mistake, that cost this guy too much money, but the overheating issue should have been resolved prior to continued use.

[glhs727]

IIRC, the guy started with a N/A van and bought a second van that was turbo. We built him a motor. the shop in utah installed the motor and all assecories, along with the wiring harness and fuel tank/pump from the donor van.

[glhs727]

It isnt normal practice for rebuilds to have the waterpump with it..

No, we don't normally supply a waterpump/housing or brackets/pulleys with a rebuild. Normally a customer reuses their brackets, pulleys, housings.

[BadAssPerformance]

Thread cleaned up. Please, ONLY posts from people directly involved.

---------- Post added at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------

I do understand the rules JT, but I would like to extend my help if needed in this case. If this truly is a real case, I will be full willing to take a look at the van and see if there are any options for him. I live is SLC.

I do remember this Cindy. I did call the guy once and no one answered when I called. I figured this was over with, someone had taken care of the issue is why he didn't answer. If he still needs help, I would be happy to run over and see what's possible with what he has left.

This is a sad situation, seems like this poor guy got screwed pretty badly by someone who wasn't very familiar with our cars. Simple mistake, that cost this guy too much money, but the overheating issue should have been resolved prior to continued use.

Corby, I left your post as you offered to help the OP, let us know if you can.

[A.J.]

Since an '89 engine was sold to someone with an '88 van there are going to be some parts that are incompatible. I think we can all agree to that. To avoid the "he said she said", I think copies of receipts and invoices from both parties ought to be posted. If the customer requested a performance engine for an '88 and got a common block then FWD Performance is at fault. If FWD Performance sold the customer an '89 engine, informing them of the differences and that was ignored, then the customer is at fault for not passing that on to the install shop. Other issues like the Quaife, spacer, and a billed Fidanza adjustable cam gear (which was not on the engine I removed) might be resolved.

When I have big ticket items, I try to dot all I's and cross all T's in the beginning so the customer knows exactly what to expect. As much as I like to score big ticket items, I'd rather pass if things can't be made clear in the beginning than dealing with the s**t storm that may follow due to a misunderstanding.

A.J.

[glhs727]

Remember the customer also had an 1989 turbo minvan that he was using parts to convert his 88 to turbo. That is where the install shop got the harness, ecu, gas tank and any other assorted parts they needed..... He knew upfront that he was getting an 89 motor

[glhs727]

Eventually, we found out the reason why the engine was overheating and eventually seized. It was because the water pump housing was the wrong year for the water pump pulley. Essentially, the water pump/pulley that the "Experts" at FWD Performance installed and sent to me was mismatched and was trying to pump the water BACKWARDS! This is not something that either the first shop or the dealership would have caught and I don't blame them for the problem. All the parts looked correct from the outside and there was no reason for them to think that FWDP would make such a simple mistake.
Dennis L.
Salt Lake City, UT

The water pump housing doesn't move water. The water pump does. Dennis, you may want to check your records. I called Larry Miller Dodge today, and Wes in service was kind enough to look up your service record. It shows that THEY installed a new water pump on your van on 2/18/10 so that the last shop that diagnosed this issue as your problem wasn't what we installed. That was replaced by the dodge dealer, and what they found was what LMD put on, not us......

[A.J.]

Remember the customer also had an 1989 turbo minvan that he was using parts to convert his 88 to turbo. That is where the install shop got the harness, ecu, gas tank and any other assorted parts they needed..... He knew upfront that he was getting an 89 motor

That still doesn't negate his other complaints like the cam gear and Quaife. That's why I said receipts and invoices ought to be posted.

water pump pully bull. i had a 88 turbo pacifica that the grove type pully got bent and i put a smooth faced pully on and drove it 2 yrs. even drove to richmond 600 mile drive in90s weather in one day and never had any overheating problems.the pumps are neutral rotation. they pump ether way. fins are straight.
.the common block pumps are rotational. fins are slated, plus the bolts holding the pully on are bigger,i own a 86 laser.bought wtih a blown head motor and rebuilt auto trans.put head on and drove not 5 miles and over heated. had smarts turn heater on wide open to limp back home.recheck stuff,new rad,new therm. new waterpump,so on.thought about pully deal went fron groove to smooth no luck. rechanged therm no go rechanged rad no go. now on 2 motor done fried first one. build forged piston 2.5 eng.bored new head works. friend put the common block waterpump stuff on 91 stuff so i do with a new wawa pump not rebuilt stuff.new power and 240 degreing again tranny goes cooked. rebuild a turb tranny, other was not thought that was why poor logivity. go to v.a hospitol don;t make it half way 240 260.run it till it quit.blowed all freeze plugs fried turb, busted head in all cilynders. cooked forged pistons but the mp head gasket looked new. arp haed studs work in fact the 3rd motor i throwed together with same gasket and studs no problem even after overheating 3 times. my buddy john asked about my ac one day, if cold and so on.i told i put a new, dryer, compreser, dealer flushed new expansion valve pulled vac hole 9 yards $700.00 bill but wasn't really cold. he said the condenser in front of my rad was the hole problem. no way. removed condenser eng. temp dropped 60 to 80 degs. right off the bat in fact runs so cool now going to replace 160 with 195 therm to get the l.m. to work right. the point i;m saying in overheating stuff anything can be the problem.i was the 4th person to own this low miles perfect bodied car with this problem. don't believe the pully deal. nope, nope can't covince me.

http://youtu.be/5hfYJsQAhl0

So replacing the smoked engine and the ONLY thing I did different was swap that pulley didn't fix the problem? Yet after I was done that van drove from Arizona to Utah with no problems. Wow. Just wow.

A.J.

[glhs727]

That still doesn't negate his other complaints like the cam gear and Quaife. That's why I said receipts and invoices ought to be posted.

We charged him for the quaiffe and our price was clearly listed which is $1400. Nobody forced him to buy it. He KNEW it did not come with a spacer. He later sent me a email that said he found a spacer..... BTW this was in 2008... Also if the cam gear was NOT on the engine and he paid for it, why didn't he say something when the engine arrived. When did he notice it wan't one there? when it arrived, after the install shop had it? after the dodge dealer had it? After A.J. replaced the motor? if there was an issue, why asay something years later and not when it occurred? I didn't address these issues as the major portion of his complaint was the motor. But since it was brought up, there is my response....

[DodgeZ]

"Feedback" Rules

The purpose of the feedback section is to provide a forum where folks can create threads specific to their dealings with each other. If you had a negative experience with someone, you can come here to post your facts and story. This not only brings your experience to attention but also to those who may be in active or future dealings with the person in question. We will also be able to track dealings and take appropriate actions.

Each thread is between the two parties involved, no one else. This means that you should share your dealings within your own thread. Irrelevant posts will be deleted as any of the staff see fit and without warning!

You can use the prefix filtering at the bottom of the page to find only negative, positive, resolved, or neutral thread listings. You an also click on the prefix itself from any thread listing.

This thread needs to be cleaned up. It is between FWD and the Vietnam War Vet.

[glhs727]

This thread doesn't need to be cleaned up, it needs to be deleted. The accusations are unfounded... The items shop # 4 claims to have been the issue, are NOT fwd parts... nor were we the shop that installed the motor.....

---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:53 PM ----------

well he said u charged him 1500.....i guess only reciepts will prove????

but hey, I dont know about anyone else, but in all the years I have ordered from FWDP.....i have NEVER ONCE GOT A RECEIPT.....so I have this feeling there is no way to prove this guys case, whether you overcharged him for the quaife, or whether or not he actually recieved/payed for a fidanza cam gear.

ONLY canadian orders are shipped without a receipt because the customs forms/reported value issues (which our customers appreciate). Orders place online and in your account can be easily viewed and printed by selecting order history and clicking on the particular order #.

[BadAssPerformance]

Cleaned up AGAIN... No more peanut gallery folks, please. Consider this a warning.