Hybrid still king?

[zin]

Im putting a gt2871 compressor side on my vnt. I guess we'll see how that pans out. Ideally one would want a higher-flowing turbine side to go with it, though.

Am I reading that you can upgrade the stock VNT with the wheel and cover? I figured you could do that kind of thing, but wasn't sure what "family" would have interchangeable parts...

Mike

[contraption22]

Am I reading that you can upgrade the stock VNT with the wheel and cover? I figured you could do that kind of thing, but wasn't sure what "family" would have interchangeable parts...

Mike

Might as well put the whole GT2871 on there IMHO. Otherwise you will still have the stock, restrictive, and sometimes problematic stock VNT turbine side.

[roachjuice]

I thought u had a S50 t3/t4 judging by your sig??? i can spool my bigger turbo just as quick or faster (in some cases that i read about some setups)



DBB FTW!!!
they spiiin sooooooo nice tooo. they are a much better choice for a street/auto x cars as well. as they spool approx 500rpm faster then a same turbo but in non ball bearing config...
not to mention the reliability....

if you went with a DBB turbo, id honest suggest the "disco potato" its the GT28RS its pretty much an improved S60 turbo, but will spool better and make more top end (have been pushed to 350whp) which im pretty sure the approx range your looking for? its seriously overlooked by turbo mopar'ers. id love too see someone use that turbo on a 8 valve setup....

Already did in a mini. 13.5@100 on street tires. Dbbmini is his name on here.

---------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:45 PM ----------

You get what you pay for, a decent hybrid is $800, so is it really that much difference?

I paid 280 shipped for mine. It's still working. Did I get what I paid for? Or do I have to jump on the "bandwagon" and start dumping money and go just as fast?

[Juggy]

Already did in a mini. 13.5@100 on street tires. Dbbmini is his name on here.[COLOR="Silver"]

nice...any more specs on the setup?? how much boost? auto or 5 spd?

[Directconnection]

Am I reading that you can upgrade the stock VNT with the wheel and cover? I figured you could do that kind of thing, but wasn't sure what "family" would have interchangeable parts...

Mike

Nobody has EVER had any success with upgrading the VNT with the exception of Patrick Pedroza. I think he used a GN wheel in the stock housing.

5digits will tell you: why increase the efficiency of the compresser side when you're already having issues trying to control a stock wheel with the horrible exhaust turbine side?

I love the vnt.... but there's a point when you must say: "it's gotta go" and that's anything over 220whp.

[roachjuice]

nice...any more specs on the setup?? how much boost? auto or 5 spd?

20 over 2.5 built auto. Cleaned up head (actually the head on my car) no tune 5th and 6th injectors 20+psi (I think) 3050 weight.

[zin]

5digits will tell you: why increase the efficiency of the compressor side when you're already having issues trying to control a stock wheel with the horrible exhaust turbine side?

Why? Well, because I'm a glutton for punishment! That's why! Well, that and I feel that if you added an external wast-gate, it's problem solved time! You get the "insta-boost" of the VNT, while eliminating the problem of a restrictive scroll...

I realize it is kind of a band-aid, but I've got one on the car now, and think it would be educational to "make it work".

As to the GN wheel, I didn't think the smaller "frame size" of the VNT would allow swapping without machining the backing plate, etc... If this isn't the case, I probably have enough parts laying around to Frankenstein one together...

Mike

[Shadow]

Why? Well, because I'm a glutton for punishment! That's why! Well, that and I feel that if you added an external wast-gate, it's problem solved time! You get the "insta-boost" of the VNT, while eliminating the problem of a restrictive scroll...

I realize it is kind of a band-aid, but I've got one on the car now, and think it would be educational to "make it work".

As to the GN wheel, I didn't think the smaller "frame size" of the VNT would allow swapping without machining the backing plate, etc... If this isn't the case, I probably have enough parts laying around to Frankenstein one together...

Mike

Damn, really too bad they didn't biuld the VNT on T3 platform.......

[Ondonti]

I am not down on older style turbos, I would just say negative things about bad hybrids. You put the wrong cover onto a turbo, and then put it on a motor setup that does not compliment the turbo and you have a recipe for a long thread complaining about a car that in someone else's hands would be fine.

Some of the hype about new turbos is that the cost difference is really not that much. Holsets are not magic turbos, but a lot of people have found good deals on them. Guess what has happened since the market for Holsets has dried up the supply? Not such an amazing turbo if you have a failure and can't find another one, or repair parts. Bansheenut is in that fallen house of cards for his hx40pro. The repair cost for his turbo is almost the same as a new one and he has not had excess money. He just wants to jump ship to Garrett (and actually buy the below person's turbo so that person can buy a 6262).

Then I have a friend who is all horny about the 6262 but his current SC6176 (P trim exhaust, 61mm compressor wheel) is only ever run 20psi boost a few times, and most of the time is around 15-18. He might gain a few rpms worth of spool but the current turbo already fits nicely into his powerband and being FWD he would not be able to put the low rpm power down. He won't gain 10mph in the 1/4 swapping turbos to a more modern style. He can rev to 8000 rpms (and more if needed) so he is not so worried about his powerband being too small. Some guys here get a turbo that spools at 4500 rpms or later then want to shift before 6000 rpms. Thats a recipe for failure. Shadow is right that you can control when a turbo spools, but if you want a big turbo, the reality is that you will have to find a way to maximise your powerband. He himself had problems with that and it was only practice that could help him stay in the powerband a few years ago. If you build a setup that has a wider powerband, you avoid that situation. If you get full boost at 4800 rpms, then you are gonna want to be able to make power at 7000 rpms, preferably higher.

If you have the chance to start from scratch, I believe its a good idea to create the best situation for your budget. If you already are invested in a path and the gains to upgrade would be minimal, then there is no easy decision. If you have a turbo with the wrong covers and wrong wheels, then the best bet would be to dump it off on someone else and buy something you know that will work. Sometimes we make a choice based on our budget that is bad (tempted by a low price), and we should have either waited for more money, or not upgraded. I saved like 30 bucks buying my megasquirt 2 on ebay and it bit me in the butt financially when I had to get it working properly. I bought a Garrett turbo that did not work for what I was doing way back in 2004. I ended up buying an ebay turbo, then wanting to upgrade that. Bought compressor upgrade parts and then found out the ebay was not really a Garrett, it just had a Garrett cover. Then I threw the parts onto my old Garrett turbo but also had to buy a new turbine housing and turbine wheel. All that was left over was the center section, and even that had to be bored out for the newer style small shaft (old shaft must have been very small). I don't want to share how much money was wasted in that whole process. If I had done it right to begin with, and listened to some advice, instead of sticking my budget into my ears like earplugs, I would have saved a lot of money. The end result is that I have a turbo that started out in 2004, that after all the money spent, has never come close to being fully utilized. That means you get lag that you don't deserve, and you start thinking your low hp goal makes no sense. Then the reality comes that even if you can use your turbo, can you legally use it on the track (safety requirements).

Stay away from good deals that are vague listing for a "hybrid" turbo.
Hybrid is really just the combination of a T4 compressor wheel with a smaller t3 exhaust. The funny thing is that many people have been learning that the larger t4 compressor wheels make more power and spool sooner if they are on a real t4 exhaust wheel with a real t4 housing. People making 500+whp have gained 40-50whp swapping to a t4 housing and had no spool loss, or actually spooled sooner when keeping the same A/R size.
I am planing on going from a .63 t3 housing to a .96 t4 housing (actually the original housing that I had thought about throwing away) and I expect similar spool but with gobs of free HP. Or, I could go to a small t4 housing, make a little more power, and spool sooner.
Those of us in the confused mopar tiny compressor housing world could stand to make huge gains getting a proper turbo. Most others do not have this compressor issue because they never went down that path.

So if you buy a turbo, make sure its balanced. The newer turbos are guaranteed to be balanced, so it will take one of the factors of failure out of the equation. If you buy an older turbo, make sure its a balanced setup so you don't have one more reason for performance to be crap. Also remember that unless you are running high boost numbers (30+) you won't get a lot of the gains from a billet wheel. Billet wheels tend to be designed to create higher boost pressures without heating the air too much or overspinning, and move more air. If you are not maxing out your turbo and not running boost #'s above where standard oldschool compressors crap out, then you don't have a lot to gain.

Shadow could probably gain a lot of power with a new turbo since he runs 37ish pounds of boost and is on the edge of flow for the compressor. Others might see little gain.

BTW, the reason why turbos are well balanced for cars these days is because of the dyno wars on forums. They sell a LOT of turbos when a turbo is proven to do well for what is expected of it. No longer are the days of "figure it out, we don't care what happens" when it comes to turbos.

DBB is not going to drop boost threshold very much. Transient response (hitting the throttle) is going to be more noticeable. I would never invest in DBB unless I had excess budget. I would NEVER buy DBB because I think I can get away with a bigger turbo without having lag. That is fairy tale land. That bad advice is why so many people are jaded about DBB. They are being hyped for the wrong reasons. Chris said something about durability. Thats a reason they are used in a lot of motorsports. Rally cars often overspin turbos and the ball bearing turbos last longer in these extreme conditions. When it comes to drag racing, there is almost no use for DBB unless you just happen to have the extra budget to afford the small luxury it provides. Circuit racing, where you want a more responsive turbo, would almost demand a DBB. Now, If I was going to the trouble of getting DBB for my circuit racing or autocross car, I would probably want to get the Titanium aluminide (or whatever) exhaust wheel option that is the latest craze.

An incredibly expensive option is a quick spool valve (thanks to copyright laws). You can see 500 rpms sooner spool, no hp loss, but it requires a divided turbine housing and a separated exhaust manifold.

[x.Gen]

interesting to see where this thread is going. I think Brent has hit on a strong point here (as well as Greg, earlier in the thread). I'm running a 2.5, but still on the garrett. have been eyeballing the 50-trim map and giving serious consideration to it for some time (while I wait for the scratch for a new turbo to free itself up). without changing my setup significantly (or purpose of the car), I can't see where another design would change my expectations of a turbo.

in the same sense of one of the miscellaneous rants here on "staged" (canned) calibrations addressed the point that you really have to tune the calibration to the individual setup - it is just as important with the turbo. I don't think you can say any one turbo is great for a broad spectrum of applications. having seen a couple of the T4 hybrids with T3 covers FS come and go recently (and relatively quickly), I've thought to myself maybe I should change my mind and grab one since they are cheap, or just maybe the buyers are wrong jumping on these.

then I remember previous experience with other mods I've had. I can't account for what other people are doing with those T4 wheel/T3 cover turbos (for example), maybe it will work for them. but other than curiously seeking feedback, unless it was an apples to apples comparison, I'd be hesitant to base my decision on popular opinion for a relatively use-specific item like a turbo. I think it is more of a thing to ask yourself (John B) - if the idea worked for you before, what about it doesn't work now?

[Vigo]

Nobody has EVER had any success with upgrading the VNT with the exception of Patrick Pedroza. I think he used a GN wheel in the stock housing.

What success was that? FWD dyno'd ~270whp out of one of theirs, which afaik is basically a t3 60 trim sized wheel stuck in a modified stock housing.

5digits will tell you: why increase the efficiency of the compresser side when you're already having issues trying to control a stock wheel with the horrible exhaust turbine side?

Adding inertia to the compressor side with a bigger wheel means the turbo doesnt change speeds as rapidly. Im not saying its a SOLUTION, im just saying that putting a bigger compressor on would probably help control problems (like spiking) more than hurt it.

I love the vnt.... but there's a point when you must say: "it's gotta go" and that's anything over 220whp.

220whp is a really high number for a stock vnt imo. You'd need a very nice intercooler and the turbo shaft speeds would be way off the map. lol.

Well, that and I feel that if you added an external wast-gate, it's problem solved time! You get the "insta-boost" of the VNT, while eliminating the problem of a restrictive scroll...

I basically agree that the EWG is necessary but i wouldnt call it 'eliminating' the problem of a restrictive turbine. You are just moving the limits up somewhat.

As to the GN wheel, I didn't think the smaller "frame size" of the VNT would allow swapping without machining the backing plate, etc... If this isn't the case, I probably have enough parts laying around to Frankenstein one together...

You *DO* have to machine the backplate part of the center section to fit the larger exducer diameter of a GN wheel or any other wheel with a larger than stock exducer diameter. Coincidentally, the GN wheel is very close in size to the gt2871 wheel im using, and i got a quote of $100 to machine the backplate and balance the assembly from a turbo shop here in Texas.

Even though it has been proven to be ABLE to make much more power than stock, i would not try putting a bigger wheel in the stock housing. I did some digging and got lucky enough to get my compressor wheel, its native housing, and an adapter to fit it to the VNT center section for $100.

[Shadow]

Shadow is right that you can control when a turbo spools, but if you want a big turbo, the reality is that you will have to find a way to maximise your powerband. He himself had problems with that and it was only practice that could help him stay in the powerband a few years ago. If you build a setup that has a wider powerband, you avoid that situation. If you get full boost at 4800 rpms, then you are gonna want to be able to make power at 7000 rpms, preferably higher.

? No idea what your talking about here? Had trouble staying in my PB? I've Never ran a turbo that spooled as late as 4800rpm and I've been shifting 6500-7000+ the entire time I've been running the Charger.

Shadow could probably gain a lot of power with a new turbo since he runs 37ish pounds of boost and is on the edge of flow for the compressor. Others might see little gain.

I haven't ran that much boost since I swapped to the F4 cam, was running 34psi last time out.

Your correct about the main benefit of the newer gen turbos being at higher boost, but the HE351 is no slouch in that department either. I could run this turbo to 45psi efficiently if I wanted to, so still plenty of room before upgrading for me

[John B]

---------- Post added at 08:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 AM ----------

(John B) - if the idea worked for you before, what about it doesn't work now?

A word of explanation is called for here. My car has been in the planning stage for years and years and my sig has represented some components I have on hand but have not yet installed. A projected goal. I've had the S50 hybrid on the shelf for two years now and it's been in my sig, but I've been actually using a super 60 turbo. The full sig configuration is finally coming into being as I write, and I've been wondering aloud for some time (on this board) about how it's all going to work. You guys are the only other TDers I have to discuss this stuff with. I apologize for the understandable confusion. I'm optimistic that this is a really good combo for a daily driver. If not, I have five other cams and three other turbos to play around with.

[x.Gen]

even so - looks like you're set up reasonably for air flow. on an 8V, I think it is pointless to go ape sheet on just the turbo. the combination of right components (and a good cal) makes all the difference. if I had that turbo, I promise you it would definitely NOT be sitting on the shelf while I consider options. unless you've done something different than originally planned, that turbo should still be a solid mod. why not just pull it in the garage and get wrenching?

[John B]

It's in process right now. I had bad wrist pin bushings and tore it down. It's going back with the hybrid (though I was trying really hard to get someone to convince me to try the S70. No takers...)

[x.Gen]

all right then. my reading and discussions with Chris say you made the right decision. haven't heard great things about the S70. will wait to hear what you think when it is done, should be a nice jump up from the S60.

[Juggy]

S70 with a 2.5 and an auto..............hellllllz no!!!! LOL

[Vigo]

anything with a anything and an **AUTO**..............hellllllz no!!!! LOL

heheheh

Im putting an s70/stg1/.48 on my aries 2.5/5spd and noone can stop me! Mwahah.

[Shadow]

heheheh

Im putting an s70/stg1/.48 on my aries 2.5/5spd and noone can stop me! Mwahah.

That should work quite well!

[zin]

Damn, really too bad they didn't biuld the VNT on T3 platform.......

This is what I've believed... Built on the T25?... Maybe that's "close enough"?

Maybe if it just needs a backing plate I could have that made...

Mike