Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

[TFmech]

I know this has been discussed before but never really seemed to be resolved. It just seems to end up that we just running miss matched valve gear. I went with the Popes list of stuff to buy to run beehive springs only to run into one little problem. The locks that they offer in 8mm do not match our valves. They are bead locks for LS1s and are being used by some on our square groove valves. The next problem I ran into is that there dosent seem to be a single square groove lock made in seven degree. Then went looking for a beehive retainer in super 7 (8 degree) to match the MP keepers didnt really see anything. Then there is running 5/16s locks on 8mm valves still a miss match yes by only a few thou but still a miss match.

Do I have this about right?? Anyone have any part numbers that actually match....where the degrees are the same the locks match the stem they are going on?

I am hoping so if not I am going to have a run of retainers made that are the same as the comp 774 retainers just in super 7 to match the MP performance keepers that I already have. I am probably going to have 32 made 16 are already spoken for and I will probably keep 8 for my next head which will leave 8 extra if anyone wants them. If there is more interest I will have more made. Just let me know.

I am going to talk to them in the morning so I should have some info on price I am guessing they will be somewhere around $10 a piece price probably going down with quanity. Like I said I would rather have numbers for stuff that is already out there but if not we will have some made.

[OmniLuvr]

this is part of the reason i havent tried running beehives yet, didnt seem like there was enough info and i dont have enough time to figure it out. if you had retainers made that would be AWSOME, but what material will they be? if you are going to have them made, i would put this in the group by section and see how many people would bite, and if you had enough, could you get them for any cheaper (10 buck is good, but im a cheap a$$)?

[boost geek]

I run MP hardened locks with those springs and retainers. I pulled it apart this winter, looked good, threw new locks in again, ready to try buzz it to 8000 this season.

[TFmech]

I talked to my freind down at Victory and they said they might even have what we need on the shelf if not they are going to have to make them. They only cut retainers out of ti so they they are going to be a bit more expensive then the steel pieces. I am sending the stuff down today for them to take a look at it. If they are a off the shelf part we will be able to buy them in sets of 8. If they have to make them they will have to be made in sets of 16. They wanted to check the stuff out before they gave me a set price on them but they should be in the 13-17 dollar per part which is right in the ballpark for ti retainers. They are basically going to be a copy of the 774 retainers just out of ti and in the right degree for our valve locks. These will make it so you can truely drop beehive springs on a 8V with no missmatch of degrees of lock sizes.

It is not a big savings to get more made because the biggest amount of time is in setting the machine up. Once the machine is setup and programed it dosent take it hardly any time to kick out 16,32, or 64 retainers. If you guys want any of these just let me know and I will have them make some more on the order.

[TFmech]

I run MP hardened locks with those springs and retainers. I pulled it apart this winter, looked good, threw new locks in again, ready to try buzz it to 8000 this season.

Here is the only problem I have with running mismatched valve gear on my car. My car is true street car.....my car is my daily driver. It sees 5000-10000 miles a year depending on how much we are out racing with the real hot rod. I would not be afraid to drive the omni cross country to anywhere. It is tuned for 22psi on pump gas and is no where close to stock....the only time it had time to take it to the track it fried the tires for 3 gears hooked up and ran 14.10 at a 110mph on street tires. It is a true high HP street car. I just dont see miss matched valve gear as being reliable or something that would last. I mean Dodge didnt 8 degree locks on a seven degree retainer from the factory and say it looks good should be fine.......we dont put missmatched retainers and locks on the top fuel car and call it good and our stuff only has to run for 4 seconds.....it is just not a good practice.....the way I look at it there is already to much stuff that can go wrong with a high hp car especially one with a lot of boost to be running valve gear that if you call any valve train company and ask they will tell you that it is not a good idea..... I am not going to run anything on my ride that is might leave me stranded out in the middle of no where now will I would I recomend it to any of you guys....

[OmniLuvr]

the way I look at it there is already to much stuff that can go wrong with a high hp car especially one with a lot of boost to be running valve gear that if you call any valve train company and ask they will tell you that it is not a good idea.....

the way i see it, is there's to much to go wrong with a stock car

and if they are going to be made out of ti, then thats perfect, lightweight to go with the high rpms, didnt want to spend to much on heavy retainers...

[turbovanman²]

I've posted the info before but it can be hard to find, plus I offer the retainers. You use GM V6 3100 retainers, they are correctly for the beehive and are 8 deg's, so you retain the stock valve and keepers.

$20 a set plus shipping.

[johnl]

Is there a problem with the lighter seat pressure of the beehives such that boost might blow the intake valves off their seats?

[turbovanman²]

Nope, and they aren't lighter pr say.

[TFmech]

Is there a problem with the lighter seat pressure of the beehives such that boost might blow the intake valves off their seats?

Really they are a bit higher depending on which springs you are running now the Compcams 995s are what 145 or so depending exactly where you have them installed at.

---------- Post added at 04:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 PM ----------

I've posted the info before but it can be hard to find, plus I offer the retainers. You use GM V6 3100 retainers, they are correctly for the beehive and are 8 deg's, so you retain the stock valve and keepers.

$20 a set plus shipping.

I new someone had to know if there was something out there. Thanks for the info I already sent the stuff out so we will find out what the exact cost is anyway for the ti retainers if anyone wants any I might go that route anyway save the couple grams on the good side of the valve train. I looked all over the damn place for the info too. Thank you!!

Kris

[OmniLuvr]

I've posted the info before but it can be hard to find, plus I offer the retainers. You use GM V6 3100 retainers, they are correctly for the beehive and are 8 deg's, so you retain the stock valve and keepers.

crap, we just gave one of those engines away to the scrap guy...

[glhs0426]

I've posted the info before but it can be hard to find, plus I offer the retainers. You use GM V6 3100 retainers, they are correctly for the beehive and are 8 deg's, so you retain the stock valve and keepers.

$20 a set plus shipping.

I just looked up GM p/n 10166344 that you listed in this thread
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...t-they-sent-me

It shows to be correct for a 3100 GM engine as well as an early LS series engine.

Question: Aren't LS series engines 7 degree locks/retainers?

[GLHNSLHT2]

Is there a problem with the lighter seat pressure of the beehives such that boost might blow the intake valves off their seats?

John, the 26995 comp springs are the same seat pressure as the MP 061 springs. So you shouldn't have any problem keeping the valves on the seat. I run the 26995's, comp retainers and 7 degree locks but I have aftermarket valves so they all just bolt right in

[4 l-bodies]

And then there is the issue of beehive springs breaking on a much more frequent basis then conventional springs. Never heard of it? Google it. I've personally seen more than one motor drop a valve at a very well known engine builder in my area. They were using the exact same Comp beehive spring some of you are using. All SBC's. If owners had opted for conventional dual springs, they would have never lost entire motor. But they just had to have them cuz their the bees knees... Couple that with 3X the cost, this is why I don't run them. Until we have camshafts over .550" I just don't see the need, esp when the cheap 942's do the job fine. Set up valvetrain correctly and 942's will easily support .500+ lift cam and live a long happy life.
Todd

[Aries_Turbo]

942's as the only spring or with the inner spring as well?

brian

[glhs0426]

John, the 26995 comp springs are the same seat pressure as the MP 061 springs. So you shouldn't have any problem keeping the valves on the seat. I run the 26995's, comp retainers and 7 degree locks but I have aftermarket valves so they all just bolt right in

Where did you get the 7 degree square groove locks? Also, what brand are they, and what is the p/n? This is TFmech's reason for the thread. The 2.2 uses 8mm valves and there is not an 8mm 7 degree lock with a square groove.

[glhs0426]

John, the 26995 comp springs are the same seat pressure as the MP 061 springs. So you shouldn't have any problem keeping the valves on the seat. I run the 26995's, comp retainers and 7 degree locks but I have aftermarket valves so they all just bolt right in

You run aftermarket valves, what size stem and what groove? Maybe just the brand and size of the valves would give us a little better idea of a combination that works.

[TFmech]

John, the 26995 comp springs are the same seat pressure as the MP 061 springs. So you shouldn't have any problem keeping the valves on the seat. I run the 26995's, comp retainers and 7 degree locks but I have aftermarket valves so they all just bolt right in

I was going to ask pretty the same thing as John did you have aftermarket valves made with bead lock grooves? It has crossed my mind to have some ti intake valves made....talk a light valve train. I would have them put bead lock grooves in those. Did with the bead lock LS1 lock on the square groove that most of our aftermarket valves have? Although this dose and probably and will work....this will end up wearing the valves prematurely and if you ever put a square lock back on those same valves look out.....

[TFmech]

And then there is the issue of beehive springs breaking on a much more frequent basis then conventional springs. Never heard of it? Google it. I've personally seen more than one motor drop a valve at a very well known engine builder in my area. They were using the exact same Comp beehive spring some of you are using. All SBC's. If owners had opted for conventional dual springs, they would have never lost entire motor. But they just had to have them cuz their the bees knees... Couple that with 3X the cost, this is why I don't run them. Until we have camshafts over .550" I just don't see the need, esp when the cheap 942's do the job fine. Set up valvetrain correctly and 942's will easily support .500+ lift cam and live a long happy life.
Todd

The reason too run beehive springs is because they have less harmonics....this is huge in a valve train....they also use lighter retainers and the spring its self is has less mass. The less mass you have to move on the valve side of the valve train the better....they make for a smoother running motor. There is a lot of stuff going on real fast at 5500-7000+ rpm and the smoother you can make the valve train the better the motor will run and the long it will last. The reason beehive spring are a good idea is the same reason dodge put a belt on our car instead of a timeing chain and they same reason they run belt drives on high end race motors. They keep the harmonics out of the vlave train. The other good things about a single coil beehive spring is that they generate less heat. As they do not have a second spring or a dampener to rub against. Heat is what wears valve springs out.

Valve spring technology has came a long way in the last few years and beehive springs are part of that. We now have dual steel spring that look like they belong on a small block chevy that we run on the fuel car that hold 550lbs of seat pressure and dont hardly ware out. I mean in a year of racing I hardly saw one spring drop below 500lbs. This is huge, the old tripples would wear out in two races and it you didnt have them right next to coil bind they wouldnt last that long. Ti spring would have to be thrown away in 14 runs weather they were wore out or not. This same technology is being used on the same beehive springs that we are running. The biggest advance has came in the way that they can mix and purify metals for valve springs. The list goes on in the advances they have made in spring technology that is the same technology that trickles down to the springs we run on our cars...beehive springs included

As for your buddies that broke them and dropped valves. How high were they winding that there stuff??? Did they have stock valves?? Were there engines tuned right.....detonating.....and so on??? Those would be the things you would need to know. In my experience usually there are just a few things that will break a steel spring. Those include first detonating if they were detonating all bets are off....second floating the valves....third coil bind....fourth bad valve train geometry...and fifth a mix of any or all of those. Becuase usually when they get spun high enough where they float the valves they start backfiring, detonating, and just generally things get stupid from there on out. That and this is all if one of the things above did not prematurly weaken the spring in the past. The only springs I have ever seen just break for no paticular reason are Ti spring and unless you are into spending money and want to tear your stuff down change them out every week you dont need Ti springs.

You do have a point that they 942s are cheap and yes they will work but they are also old technology the reason the beehives cost more is that they are newer technology are they worth it if you are going to zing your suff up there like I do mine i would recomend them....but to each there own.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I got my valves from Manley through Steve Menegon and told him that I was going to use beehives and single groove keepers. I don't know exactly what the keepers and grooves in the valves look like as I didn't put the head together. But I do know that the big rough 2.5 sings smooth as glass above 3500rpms and will wack the 7200rpm rev limiter before you can shift if you're not really paying attention in 1st and 2nd gears. I LOVE them. I hope my Masi 16v is as smooth and responsive on the 2.5.