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Thread: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

  1. #161
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Why do the rotators suck? Must have been a good reason for the factory to have used them instead of regular keepers...

    I ordered one of the MP P4529217 retainers to test with, Summit says backordered and will be shipped on the 27th. Hopefully it will be the ticket to drop-in beehives.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  2. #162
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    I've been waiting for someone to put the pieces together to allow the use of beehive springs with a properly matched keeper, valve and retainer.

    Nothing really wrong with rotators, other than multi piece units, as seen on some Chevy v8s can come apart under race conditions, resulting in a dropped valve. Otherwise they add to endurance by not allowing a valve to "hammer weld" material from/to the valve/seat, so the exhaust valves seal better for a longer time.

    If they were bullet proof, and didn't add weight, racecars would use them. So for an all-out race application, they aren't the ticket, but in a street car, that is expected to run reliably for 100 thousand miles, they would practically be required.

    Mike
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

    Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
    - Edmund Burke

  3. #163
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Retainer came in today, hopefully I can try it out this weekend sometime.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  4. #164
    turbo addict
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    I am using the #26995 Comp springs with Comp retainer #774 with Comp machined square groove keeper #628. Retainer and keepers are 7°. I am also using Manley valves (which come in about .0015 smaller diameter than stock. Close to a true 5/16" valve. So keepers and retainers are both 7° and both designed for 5/16" valves. There is no mismatch at all using the Manley valves. Everything seems to fit very well.
    I haven't been following this thread very close but if you guys are trying to find 8° keepers for use with stock 8mm diameter valves, you can use super 7° 5/16" keepers (which are supposedly 8°) for the intakes. There are a few 8° retainers out there, but doubtful to match the 26995 spring.
    Not sure exactly what you guys are trying to do? Can you fill me in, maybe I can help.
    Todd

  5. #165
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Boosstgeek and I are using the same combo 8000+ rpm shifts and no prolems yet

  6. #166
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Quote Originally Posted by 4 l-bodies View Post
    I am using the #26995 Comp springs with Comp retainer #774 with Comp machined square groove keeper #628. Retainer and keepers are 7°. I am also using Manley valves (which come in about .0015 smaller diameter than stock. Close to a true 5/16" valve. So keepers and retainers are both 7° and both designed for 5/16" valves. There is no mismatch at all using the Manley valves. Everything seems to fit very well.
    I haven't been following this thread very close but if you guys are trying to find 8° keepers for use with stock 8mm diameter valves, you can use super 7° 5/16" keepers (which are supposedly 8°) for the intakes. There are a few 8° retainers out there, but doubtful to match the 26995 spring.
    Not sure exactly what you guys are trying to do? Can you fill me in, maybe I can help.
    Todd
    Trying to find an 8* beehive retainer so we can use beehives with the stock 8* keepers. So we don't have to buy a set of new valves, new keepers, remove the head to install them, etc etc. I know people are using 7* retainer on stock 8* locks and not had a problem yet, but 80% of the people on this forum are not comfortable with any chance of issues, particularly those who DD their car. So, I'm looking for an exact match that can be installed in the engine, in the car, without removing the head, a simple valve spring and retainer swap.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  7. #167
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Well P4529217 is a no-go with the 995 springs, too large.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  8. #168
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Bummer ...
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

    Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
    - Edmund Burke

  9. #169
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Well hey now...

    http://www.jegs.com/i/Mopar-Performa...ductId=1691312

    http://www.jegs.com/i/Mopar-Performa...ductId=1691312

    7* stock-style valve locks. So these and the Comp 774 (or stock LSx) retainers and 995 springs should be a drop-in fit w/ no mis-match.
    Last edited by Force Fed Mopar; 10-19-2014 at 11:14 AM.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  10. #170
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Yeah, but this

    http://m.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-4452031

    And this

    http://m.summitracing.com/search?keyword=p4452030

    Makes it seem like intake is 7* and exhaust is 8*. Which can't be right because they use the same retainers.
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
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  11. #171
    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    I still think the Mopar stamped retainers (stock especially, but also the hardened MP pieces) are not precise enough for a 1deg difference to matter...
    https://db.tt/SV7ONZpQ
    Rob Lloyd
    '89 Daytona C/S

    2.5 T1 Auto
    13.24 @ 100.5mph
    NHRA #3728 AF/S

    boostbutton.com
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  12. #172
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    Yeah, but this

    http://m.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-4452031

    And this

    http://m.summitracing.com/search?keyword=p4452030

    Makes it seem like intake is 7* and exhaust is 8*. Which can't be right because they use the same retainers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame View Post
    I still think the Mopar stamped retainers (stock especially, but also the hardened MP pieces) are not precise enough for a 1deg difference to matter...
    Hmm, someone has the info wrong I guess. I assume you mean locks, not retainers?

    Also, while check the Jeep retainer last night, I noticed the stock exhaust locks were butted together when installed in the retainer. Not sure if stock tolerances were that sloppy or if it is made that way since they are rotators.

    I'm also checking into alternative beehive springs that will fit the Jeep retainer, in case we can't get the LS retainer and lock angle thing figured out.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  13. #173
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    On page 98 of the Mopar speed secrets 3rd edition for 2.2-2.5 FWD, there is a note under the retainer usage chart that states;
    NOTE: 8 degrees refers to the included angle for the 2 locks which is actually between 7 and 8.

  14. #174
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    So... Sounds like these keepers (stock angle?) with the LSx retainers and the Comp Beehives are actually as "matched" as one can hope for, without having stuff made, agreed?

    If so, my shopping list looks like this:
    Intake keepers: P4452031 http://m.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-4452031
    Exhaust keepers: p4452030 http://m.summitracing.com/search?keyword=p4452030
    Springs (2-sets): 26995-16 http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/...rentProductId=
    LS-1 Retainers: 775-16 http://www.jegs.com/i/COMP-Cams/249/...07#moreDetails

    Not sure about the retainers... Feel free to correct as needed.

    Mike
    Last edited by zin; 10-27-2014 at 05:52 PM.
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

    Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny.
    - Edmund Burke

  15. #175
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Quote Originally Posted by moparloper View Post
    On page 98 of the Mopar speed secrets 3rd edition for 2.2-2.5 FWD, there is a note under the retainer usage chart that states;
    NOTE: 8 degrees refers to the included angle for the 2 locks which is actually between 7 and 8.
    I came up with 8° on the keepers when I measured them. There are plenty of errors in that book. If something sounds wrong it probably is.

  16. #176
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Again, the 7/8 degree difference is NOTHING. I've used prussian blue and talked to numerous performance engine builders, they said if you can measure it, your a rocket scientist.

    Use the beehives you want, LS or 3100 retainers, OE valve keepers if a swirl head and have fun. Our heads do NOT have rotators, they are have pieces that sit on top of the exhaust valve and take up 1/2-3/4" of spring height. The limit RPM but let the exhaust valve turn, thus it laps itself over its lifetime.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

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  17. #177
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Comp 995 springs
    Comp LS Spring retainers
    FWDPerformance intake and mopar performance single groove exhaust valves.
    stock mopar keepers.
    PT lifters

    Zero issues, everything fit very nicely, I've spun the engine up to 7500 several times, haven't dropped a valve and the valvetrain is whisper quiet.

  18. #178
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    If you get single groove valves, buy the aftermarket hardened keepers, cheap insurance.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  19. #179
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    It's looking like anyone wanting to run 995's is gonna have to deal with it. Still looking though.
    Rob M.
    '89 Turbo GTC

    2.5 TIII stroker, 568 w/ OBX and 3.77 FD

  20. #180
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    Re: Beehive spring matching locks and retainers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    It's looking like anyone wanting to run 995's is gonna have to deal with it. Still looking though.
    Looking for what?
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

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