The Holset he341 3.0L

[Ondonti]

Glad you got it fixed. I was actually going to suggest that you start taking away circuits until things quite blowing. You got there before me!

Also good news about the knock recordings (well the good things that came out of it anyway). We could always hook your car to my truck and then let you car try to pull my truck up that hill! Then, if it brakes we already have a towstrap and a tow vehicle!! :deal:

Hmm, something tells me not to do anymore towing up hills with boost...at least not part throttle.

I also learned that the huge backfires (afterfire gunshots) I was getting the past few weeks were caused by my speed sensor wire not being connected to the ECU. I blame Reaper1 because the wire must have gotten pulled apart while we were probing wires on the ecu when getting the a/c circuit to work again. With no speed signal the ecu cuts almost all fuel on decel. With speed signal the car is much smoother on decel because it injects a lot of fuel (still 15-16:1 air fuel ratio instead of pegging the wideband lean).

[Reaper1]

Oh sure....just because my car is infinitely broken I get blamed for busting yours! LOL :P

I liked the backfires...because race car!! Right?

Glad you did get it fixed. Honestly I wouldn't have thought about looking at the SDS signal for a backfire issue.

[Ondonti]

Dry day so decent traction in 3rd.

This is a spectrogram of 3rd gear and 10psi boost. Stock n/a timing (12 base setting), 92 octane.
There does not appear to be any knock. The only thing that looks like knock is the rev limiter at the end. Also took a complete datalog of the pull by videorecording the DRBII scanner. Checking those ignition timing numbers vs what I already had documented, I made a new spreadsheet that autopopulates all the load points for Megasquirt's 12x12 table and all I have to change is WOT timing and then the modifier I want for each load cell. I made both an OEM part throttle an OEM WOT load group (1989 bin file) for n/a values and then since the WOT numbers are fairly lame for load when you are not at 100kpa/0psi (in vacuum) I made a column of load values that take the average between WOT and PT. Those numbers very closely match the maps I had made already using Evo 10 and 1999 vr4 tables for cell to cell differenciation reference. 10:1 pistons in the Duster might not like the timing map under vacuum but 92 octane vs 87 might make that a non issue. I have a very conservative boost (100+kpa) spark map since there is no turbo on the Duster to even bother testing out.

Being able to run stock timing on 10psi with stock 8.9:1 partial skirt 1.2,1.5,3.0mm ringed OEM pistons means I can be a lot less conservative with my Duster's megasquirt tune when it gets back to boosting.

[Vigo]

Wow, no knock@10psi on oem timing and 92 octane? That's pretty sweet considering the amount of power that boost level can get you.

[Reaper1]

VERY nice, Brent!

[Ondonti]

Wow, no knock@10psi on oem timing and 92 octane? That's pretty sweet considering the amount of power that boost level can get you.

Yeah, makes me feel pretty confident that with megasquirt or a boost button miracle you could throw down 350-400whp with a stock motor and decent turbo with only 92 octane. Going from 10psi to 17-20psi with proper spark advance seems pretty reasonable. That said, this motor has aggressive ring gaps just in case. Even large ring gaps won't save the motor from everything as I learned towing up the hill while leanburning.

I think this is a good place to load up the engine for knock testing.
http://wikimapia.org/702541/Nike-Hill

[Ondonti]

While comparing the distributor setup on all three of my 3.0 vehicles, I found that my He341 Spirit's rotor was not in the same position with the timing marks lined up. I then realized that it wobbled back and forth and my 2 other motors did not. Took the rotor off and found that the post that screws into the distributor was loose. Removed the post and the optical sensor cover and found that the slotted disc inside had its half moon key surfaces banged up from vibrating back and forth. Both parts have a LOT of play (about 8 degrees) from the damage caused by years of vibration. I put the optical sensor slotted disc in the middle of its accidental adjustability window and turned the post all the way counterclockwise and locked it down.

Now I have to reset timing since its likely to be very off. Makes me wonder how often my timing was messing up, wandering, or being strange.

[Vigo]

Im going to go with 99% of the time...?

[Reaper1]

My Z had the reluctor wheel come loose similar to what you describe, so effectively I had a similar problem, but to a lessor extent because my rotor didn't come loose. I had always wondered why my timing at idle bounced all over the place. Did your timing park move all over when you checked the timing?

[Ondonti]

Im going to go with 99% of the time...?

My Z had the reluctor wheel come loose similar to what you describe, so effectively I had a similar problem, but to a lessor extent because my rotor didn't come loose. I had always wondered why my timing at idle bounced all over the place. Did your timing park move all over when you checked the timing?

Yes, when setting the timing it bounced all over the place even with the accesory belts off and coolant temp sensor unplugged (oem electronics).

The rotor has been wiggly like that forever. This distributor was OEM for my 1994 silver 3.0 Spirit, then it went into my Duster when I put a junkyard engine into the Spirit. Now those two cars have switched distributors when I stole the good cylinder heads from the Duster and the wiggly one is back into the He341 Spirit. I find it odd that the screw never came more loose. Thinking back to the first mods I ever did to any car in my life, when I did the basic ignition components replacement, the rotor was like this in 2002. Dang.

[Shadow24]

It's not too surprising to me. I had to replace the dizzy in my 12v after it got so loose the car wouldn't run at all. My mechanic said it was a known issue (at least to him, maybe Chrylser?) with those motors. Had to get a used distributor that was in better shape. If there is a way to go with a toothed wheel, I'd suggest that. A little harder to get slop in the system and all.

[Reaper1]

Huh...I've not heard of this issue being "common" with the 3.0 until this. Not to say it wasn't there, just not mentioned. I'll say this, I never sold a single distributor for a 12V 3.0 while working for Auto Zone, over the counter or commercial.

[Ondonti]

I don't think its a problem, the only problem I have heard of is the hiccup at 3000 rpms for which I don't actually know the cause. Might just be the ecu. Especially since it only happens at part throttle. Could be loss of sync caused by interference or a million other things.

This was an easy fix. The annoying thing is that I remembered I have a tiny Nick Boers underdrive pulley installed so I didn't reset the timing and not sure if I feel like doing the timing now since I also have the a/c belt on. Did find that my a/c system is...empty after it was not cold during my last long family drive.

[Ondonti]

Really happy with the powerband. Cams will make a bunch more power but it proves my opinion that a big turbo moves the powerband to the right. More power at 6200 rpms than 4500. That means even at 6200 rpms the motor drops out of peak power by a LOT.. 3.50 final drive a543, 240hp at 6200 rpms and when shifting to 2nd gear you drop to 3900 rpms and only 195whp. Crazy! Mindblowing! The stock rev limiter is holding back turbo 3.0s even on stock cams! 2nd to 3rd gear drops from 240whp @ 6200 rpms to 225hp @ 4300 rpms!!!!

Pushed coolant on the 3rd 13ish psi run so we (with Reaper1) backed it back down to 10psi. It was probably starting to knock at 12psi.

Stock 3.0 motor, 92 octane. Stock n/a timing map. With timing control there is probably a lot more room to go and the same with alky injection on stock timing. Probably more to gain with modified timing maps.

[Vigo]

Good stuff.

I am kind of surprised the torque numbers are not bigger early on. But that is basically a good thing because crazy peak torque at lowish rpms means you have to start tuning around detonation before you even make good higher rpm power.

It is funny thinking about my old Aries dyno which was with 2" exh and probably over-advanced cam timing due to cam/gear mashup. At ~3700 rpm it was making ~210/320, only slightly above where your motor is at the same rpm, but then it tanked whereas yours basically continues making the same torque for another 1500 rpm before really dropping and ends up making 70 more whp because of it.

Having the big torque is fun but there is a reason why 8v engines with stock top ends struggle to dyno past 240whp while a stock 3.0 with NA TIMING on NA PISTONS does significantly more before you even have to adjust timing, let alone actually 'upgrade' anything.

It almost seems like with just a couple of offset cam keys and a hacked oem cal you could be shifting at 7k and making something close to 400hp with no real hard parts changes. Makes you wonder at what point cams become 'a good idea'.

[Sundance 6g72]

My cams forced me to go from 15-16psi down to 8-10 (while maintaining the same duty cycle, injectors MAXED). I could shift at 7000rpm but I dont think my little turbo likes it. I had the 3.3 valve springs and just the cams.

I think the cams are a good idea if you can afford it but only if you are running a tunable ecu (ms and such). Other mods are tempting because they tend to cost a lot less.

[boostedsohc]

With to ability to get any regrind cam profile from Crower you should be able to get a set of cams for around 200-400 bucks.

[Ondonti]

My cams forced me to go from 15-16psi down to 8-10 (while maintaining the same duty cycle, injectors MAXED). I could shift at 7000rpm but I dont think my little turbo likes it. I had the 3.3 valve springs and just the cams.

I think the cams are a good idea if you can afford it but only if you are running a tunable ecu (ms and such). Other mods are tempting because they tend to cost a lot less.

With to ability to get any regrind cam profile from Crower you should be able to get a set of cams for around 200-400 bucks.

Joe is including the fact that you need more tunability in the overall price tag of making cams really kick butt. Chrysler electronics provide zero high rpm fun.

[Force Fed Mopar]

Joe is including the fact that you need more tunability in the overall price tag of making cams really kick butt. Chrysler electronics provide zero high rpm fun.

Unless we can get the code cracked and use Turbonator/MP Tuner to modify it...

[RoadWarrior222]

Ford electronics from an SHO Taurus could be fun to try, but I doubt they are gettable this side of spendy nowadays.