The Chargers quest for 9's

[Shadow]

Maybe a CF hatch and hood? Tubular K member?

Again, interesting on the turbine. So, is 1:1 ideal or do we want a different number? Where are you testing it? I wouldn't mine testing mine some day, I have a fitting already in the turbine housing.

It has been said that 1:1 (no greater) is ideal. Lately though, ppl are starting to figure out more efficiency and they are below 1:1.

A tubular header would put me below 1:1 and again (like the F4 cam) I would make more power on less boost! (which can get kind of addictive if your not carefull! lol)

you can make it happen for sure , btw those he351 hold a lot of hp on turbo diesel close to 600 hp , the dads he341 is almost at 450 whp and still at 30 psi . great job so far and man that underhood still looking stock !

Thanks for the props, gonna do what I can!

Giver Rob. I'm curious to see where these HE351s will go. I think we are at pretty similar power levels right now with them and I would like to see how far they can be pushed. I know we will both be trying next year. This year I tried addding a few more pounders and I didn't see any results. This could be the turbo running out of breath or it could be other things. I think the head may be lifting a tad since I was blowing coolant near the end with the high RPM and 24-25psi. That could definately cause it not to respond so I will be looking into that.

I have "heard" that they will support 65lbs like you mentioned but I couldn't give you a good source to back that up. Most maps are scetchy at best and I have yet to see a definative HE351 map. I think it's time to see what these things are really made of. I sure hope it's not out of breath at 500whp since a new snail isn't in the buget for this year.

I gaurantee this turbo is not out of breath at 500WHP. I could do 500WHP with the HE341! Having said that, it's interesting that No one I'm aware of has stuck with one long enough to Really see how much power it will make?

I remember, years ago, talking to Glenn about what different turbos where capable of on the deisels they came off of. It always seemed to be about 1/2 of what you could get out of the same turbo on a gas 4 banger.

Now back then, diesel trucks were running way bigger turbos for big power with huge A/R's because ppl thought that's what was needed.

It was almost hilarious to see the turn around on the 351 when some of the diesel crowd decided to see just how far they could go! After that, it wasn't just us 4 bangers that were trying to buy them up!

If this turbo can make 600WHP and 1040TQ on a diesel at 58-60psi boost AND live! That's good for me. I'm sure it will go 600WHP, but will everything else hang in there?

1lb of exhaust back pressure for 1lb of boost in the intake IIRC

Exactly, intake mani preasure and exhaust mani preasure =. Would be real interesting to see how much it would drop with a header!

The he351 i have on my bench was pushed to 55psi daily for a year and never give any trouble was a only swapped out for compound twins and 100psi

I would love to see how far you could push the he351!!!!!!!!!!!!

Start you weight reduction with rotating mass (hubs,wheels,brakes....)

Because of my goals, I think that's exactly what I'm going to have to do.

I'm basically going to go after anything that unbolts from the main chassis. That way, the car remains uncut and streetable without having to think about it too much.

Bonus for me is I haven't even run light weight rear tires or rims yet. I gaurantee there's 40lbs to be had! (although I was hoping this would be above and beyong the 200lb I was talking about)

Big Q for me is going to be "How much do I love PS"? I could ditch the PS, no more leak, and save a nice chunk of weight + a little added HP. (not sure if I'm ready to lose it though)

Same with brakes, I've got the big Daytona 4WD brake booster in there. I could prob save some good weight going manual brakes with al calipers.

[butchsuppe]

That would be interesting what a header would do.

[turbovanman²]

Gotcha. Where are you teeing in to the exhaust? At the turbine or at the mounting flange? or does it not really matter?

[1984rampage]

Big Q for me is going to be "How much do I love PS"? I could ditch the PS, no more leak, and save a nice chunk of weight + a little added HP. (not sure if I'm ready to lose it though)

I honestly prefer my charger without the power steering. In my opinion it makes the car less twitchy and easier to control at higher speeds. Only pain is parking but even that isn't hard.

Talking to Aaron Miller he had the same feelings. Especially with a very high horsepower car he felt that the power steering made the car much too twitchy and over-responsive

[Shadow]

Gotcha. Where are you teeing in to the exhaust? At the turbine or at the mounting flange? or does it not really matter?

The concensus seems to be around the turbo mounting flange area, but the whole exhaust mani is preasurized, so not sure how much difference your going to see.

I think anywhere close to either side of the mounting flanges should give you an accurate reading. I'm on the exhaust mani side of the flange. As long as you don't go off the far side of the #1 runner.

[Shadow]

I honestly prefer my charger without the power steering. In my opinion it makes the car less twitchy and easier to control at higher speeds. Only pain is parking but even that isn't hard.

Talking to Aaron Miller he had the same feelings. Especially with a very high horsepower car he felt that the power steering made the car much too twitchy and over-responsive

Interesting. I guess the car has always seemed more streetable with the PS.
Although I have driven manual steering cars without issue.

Considering what I'm attempting to do, I would think It would be wise to loose the PS and at least give the manual rack a try.

After all, that 1 change could equate to 5-7% of my weight loss + 10% of my hp gain.

[Juggy]

Bonus for me is I haven't even run light weight rear tires or rims yet. I gaurantee there's 40lbs to be had! (although I was hoping this would be above and beyong the 200lb I was talking about)

I lost like 90 pounds of rotating mass, just from rim swap. almost 30 pounds off each rear rim (going to bogart drag rim from SRT-4 17" rear...lol) and another 15-17 pounds off each rim up front (from momo 15" with bagged slick, to 13" bogart unbagged)

my car is full interior, street legal (well no heater box...which means no defrost, so ya thats the ONLY thing). and AFTER get get my 6(8) point cage installed im estimating the car will weigh 2500 (no driver).

one of those early shelby aluminum rear re bars would also help shed some weight. no one seemed to have mention weight savings there....

[8valves]

Interesting. I guess the car has always seemed more streetable with the PS.
Although I have driven manual steering cars without issue.

Considering what I'm attempting to do, I would think It would be wise to loose the PS and at least give the manual rack a try.

After all, that 1 change could equate to 5-7% of my weight loss + 10% of my hp gain.

I liked my car best with a power rack, but no power assist. It was by far the easiest way to drive it straight and true under big power.

Plus if you ditch the pump it gives you room to make a much cleaner/better header and air intake and charge plumbing if you so desired.

So you actually measured your BP in the manifold at an equal 35 psi to the intake charge? I must've missed that. As you're aware of that is mostly due to your turbine housing and wheel choice.

For those not familiar with checking your engine combo's PR (pressure ratio, intake-exhaust) it is the key to making big power with a turbo engine. And it is a system, not individual parts. Just because Rob's car is at a 1:1 on a ported stock manifold, your car on a S60 turbo at 30 psi is not.

[Shadow]

my car is full interior, street legal (well no heater box...which means no defrost, so ya thats the ONLY thing). and AFTER get get my 6(8) point cage installed im estimating the car will weigh 2500 (no driver).

Damn, I don't get how some of you are so heavy? That can't be race weight, must be street weight before you put the lighter tire/rim combo on?

Cause my race weight with driver is slightly lighter than that right now and I still have the heater box!

one of those early shelby aluminum rear re bars would also help shed some weight. no one seemed to have mention weight savings there....

Already got one.

I liked my car best with a power rack, but no power assist. It was by far the easiest way to drive it straight and true under big power.

Plus if you ditch the pump it gives you room to make a much cleaner/better header and air intake and charge plumbing if you so desired.

So you actually measured your BP in the manifold at an equal 35 psi to the intake charge? I must've missed that. As you're aware of that is mostly due to your turbine housing and wheel choice.

For those not familiar with checking your engine combo's PR (pressure ratio, intake-exhaust) it is the key to making big power with a turbo engine. And it is a system, not individual parts. Just because Rob's car is at a 1:1 on a ported stock manifold, your car on a S60 turbo at 30 psi is not.

Well, close enough to 1:1 that for ease of conversation I'm calling it that. It was actually 1 1/16 or so to 1. lol

So your saying leave the power rack, but don't run the pump ect?

Did you drive one with an actual manual rack for comparo that brought you to this conclusion?

[Shadow]

your still running the internal gate right? external for sure!! help dump some of that exhaust. id think a nice mandrel 3" to 4" downpipe like the one ATP has would be nice too

I remember ppl telling me the external gate was a must when I was making 450whp and talking about 500WHP.

Honestly, the only advantage is if it's dumped to atmosphere and even then, it's only advantageous IF your current DP Can't handle the extra flow.

If I had a 3" right off my turbo, I'd agree that external dumping to atmosphere Could help me.

Honestly though, I don't have that problem.

[ShadowBrad]

I liked my car best with a power rack, but no power assist. It was by far the easiest way to drive it straight and true under big power.

Plus if you ditch the pump it gives you room to make a much cleaner/better header and air intake and charge plumbing if you so desired.

In a light car, L Body, I would have to agree with this. While it is slightly harder to turn than an actual manual rack, it's not very noticeable in an L Body. And by retaining the power rack w/o the pump you get to keep the same steering ratio as I'm pretty sure the manual racks turn slower so they're easier to steer.

So you actually measured your BP in the manifold at an equal 35 psi to the intake charge? I must've missed that. As you're aware of that is mostly due to your turbine housing and wheel choice.

For those not familiar with checking your engine combo's PR (pressure ratio, intake-exhaust) it is the key to making big power with a turbo engine. And it is a system, not individual parts. Just because Rob's car is at a 1:1 on a ported stock manifold, your car on a S60 turbo at 30 psi is not.

This was a question that I was going to ask and you've pretty much answered it. If measuring the pressure in your ex. manifold at the turbo flange, wouldn't that mainly be due to the restriction of the turbine side of the turbo and not the manifold itself. If your manifold was set up for 4 EGT probes, couldn't you take a pressure reading at each of those and one at the turbo flange, then compare all 5 readings to see if any of the exhaust manifold runners were holding back more pressure than the turbine itself? Or would the fact that air pressure pushes equally in all directions in a contained area cause all the readings to be the same? Or could the runner readings possibly be higher due to the fact that there is constantly new air coming into the ex manifold from the head and exiting through the turbine?

-brad

[thedon809]

Ive driven my turbo z with a power rack minus the pump for months. Wasnt bad at all.

[ShadowBrad]

Ive driven my turbo z with a power rack minus the pump for months. Wasnt bad at all.

I would agree with you on that. My Hybrid Shadow had a power rack w/o the pump and it wasn't too bad to drive. My old Omni was definitely much easier though.

-brad

[Shadow]

If measuring the pressure in your ex. manifold at the turbo flange, wouldn't that mainly be due to the restriction of the turbine side of the turbo and not the manifold itself.
-brad

This is what I've been trying to tell ppl for years! I took a good look at the factory piece, specially after doing some nice porting and Knew it would be efficient to AT LEAST 500WHP without issue.

5 + years ago ppl thought that was some kind of joke. So who's laughing now?

Your correct, to a point. The turbine wheel/housing combo is the Major restriction. As long as the manifold before it has appropriate cross section to flow X, it's not a problem.

After that there are 3 basic ways to decrease the pr diff in the exhaust mani. Larger A/R housing, Larger turbine wheel, decrease the pr diff between the mani and the aft flowing exhaust. (of course there are other ways that I'm not going to go into, like wheel clipping ect, because ppl don't like talking about that stuff!)

The first two choises will slow down spool and take away some "dynamic" from your "Charger". The 3rd choise gives you faster spool and increases the dynamic. Guess which one I have always concentrated on?

Of course, none of this matters if the rest of your system isn't already well thought out!

[8valves]

Damn, I don't get how some of you are so heavy? That can't be race weight, must be street weight before you put the lighter tire/rim combo on?

Cause my race weight with driver is slightly lighter than that right now and I still have the heater box!



Already got one.



Well, close enough to 1:1 that for ease of conversation I'm calling it that. It was actually 1 1/16 or so to 1. lol

So your saying leave the power rack, but don't run the pump ect?

Did you drive one with an actual manual rack for comparo that brought you to this conclusion?

My '86 was 2360, full wet, no driver, with 17's. With a bar in it. With the heater box.

Yes, leave the rack power but lose the pump and lines.

Yes, although not in a TM. A couple of friends turbo honda hatches had manual racks and they sucked to try and keep straight. The car was on the cusp of wheelspin so much that a touch of the wheel the wrong way, or a little bumpsteer and the whole car got unsettled and tried to change lanes if you weren't quick on the wheel. If you were quick on the wheel, you ruined the run because you were fighting the wheel so hard. It was a nightmare.

I remember ppl telling me the external gate was a must when I was making 450whp and talking about 500WHP.

Honestly, the only advantage is if it's dumped to atmosphere and even then, it's only advantageous IF your current DP Can't handle the extra flow.

If I had a 3" right off my turbo, I'd agree that external dumping to atmosphere Could help me.

Honestly though, I don't have that problem.

The advantage is control. When you have an external PROPERLY placed (ie, equal flow to turbine wheel and wastegate, or even prioritized to the wastegate) I can control boost to within .1-.2 psi of the boost target on an AEM or Motec.

An internal could too, if it were large enough and placed well, but none of them are. Therefor you get the..."how much boost was that?" "Oh, about 33-35 psi". Instead of, "33.4 for most of the run."

And if you place the wastegate right, and size your plumbing correctly, it opens up the door to more creative turbo sizing options than the "one size fits all" recommendations.

For our cars though, nobody (well, maybe a handful?) out there are dialing their chassis in to handle an extra .5 psi on the line and 1.5 psi through first gear and 2.2 psi more in second gear to compensate for a sticky track that day.

See what I mean?

This is what I've been trying to tell ppl for years! I took a good look at the factory piece, specially after doing some nice porting and Knew it would be efficient to AT LEAST 500WHP without issue.

5 + years ago ppl thought that was some kind of joke. So who's laughing now?

Your correct, to a point. The turbine wheel/housing combo is the Major restriction. As long as the manifold before it has appropriate cross section to flow X, it's not a problem.

After that there are 3 basic ways to decrease the pr diff in the exhaust mani. Larger A/R housing, Larger turbine wheel, decrease the pr diff between the mani and the aft flowing exhaust. (of course there are other ways that I'm not going to go into, like wheel clipping ect, because ppl don't like talking about that stuff!)

The first two choises will slow down spool and take away some "dynamic" from your "Charger". The 3rd choise gives you faster spool and increases the dynamic. Guess which one I have always concentrated on?

Of course, none of this matters if the rest of your system isn't already well thought out!

That's an important part of that statement there.

And without trying to get into the header debate one more time. Yes, the stock piece will physically flow the quantity of air necessary for 500 whp, as shown. So will a log. So will large enough, mitre cut plumbers pipe stick welded together.

As you've stated, the header will give you the quality flow to drop your boost down and make the same power. Or go back to the same boost and make more. That sounds like more fun.

What's your air inlet plumbing like for the turbo?

[boost geek]

[QUOTE=8valves;740213]
Yes, leave the rack power but lose the pump and lines.
[QUOTE]

When you say drop the lines, you still have the 2 looped together or left open/plugged? I run a power rack with the lines looped.
My car is 2460 with 1/2 tank of fuel and everything in it.

[Shadow]

My '86 was 2360, full wet, no driver, with 17's. With a bar in it. With the heater box.

This is what I don't get? How the H#LL is everyone so heavy? Must be like dyno #'s, depending what scale you go to! lol

Yes, leave the rack power but lose the pump and lines.

Yes, although not in a TM. A couple of friends turbo honda hatches had manual racks and they sucked to try and keep straight. The car was on the cusp of wheelspin so much that a touch of the wheel the wrong way, or a little bumpsteer and the whole car got unsettled and tried to change lanes if you weren't quick on the wheel. If you were quick on the wheel, you ruined the run because you were fighting the wheel so hard. It was a nightmare.

Thanks for the added info, go to know!

The advantage is control. When you have an external PROPERLY placed (ie, equal flow to turbine wheel and wastegate, or even prioritized to the wastegate) I can control boost to within .1-.2 psi of the boost target on an AEM or Motec.

An internal could too, if it were large enough and placed well, but none of them are. Therefor you get the..."how much boost was that?" "Oh, about 33-35 psi". Instead of, "33.4 for most of the run."

And if you place the wastegate right, and size your plumbing correctly, it opens up the door to more creative turbo sizing options than the "one size fits all" recommendations.

For our cars though, nobody (well, maybe a handful?) out there are dialing their chassis in to handle an extra .5 psi on the line and 1.5 psi through first gear and 2.2 psi more in second gear to compensate for a sticky track that day.

See what I mean?

Makes sense. Also makes sense why I haven't felt the need, as up until now, I run ALL of it and try to air down the slicks to hook me up!

Although, I've never had a problem dialing up or down the boost by 1/2lb and my boost target has always been very smooth and consistant through the RPM. I've always contributed this to the flow I've always had After the turbine.

That's an important part of that statement there.

And without trying to get into the header debate one more time. Yes, the stock piece will physically flow the quantity of air necessary for 500 whp, as shown. So will a log. So will large enough, mitre cut plumbers pipe stick welded together.

As you've stated, the header will give you the quality flow to drop your boost down and make the same power. Or go back to the same boost and make more. That sounds like more fun.

What's your air inlet plumbing like for the turbo?

This is where ppl get confused with me. How can I make that kind of statement with proof, then go and say that I agree with everything being said about how much MORE a header can do!

I can tell you this, we're going to find out exactly what a swap from ported stock mani to header will do on a build like this and within the next 6-8 months. I proved to myself, if no one else that what I believed was in fact true, now it's time to move on and see what else can/can't be proven!

Turbo inlet is 4" mandrel to K&N filter. Always just left it under the hood. But, I plumed it in a way that I could remove the left H/L and run the 4" right up and through the H/L opening and really get CAI! (just another thing I thought about and haven't had the chance to try out....yet! )

[Shadow]

[quote=boost geek;740221][QUOTE=8valves;740213]
Yes, leave the rack power but lose the pump and lines.

When you say drop the lines, you still have the 2 looped together or left open/plugged? I run a power rack with the lines looped.
My car is 2460 with 1/2 tank of fuel and everything in it.

Does the "everything" include you?

[boost geek]

[quote=Shadow;740224][quote=boost geek;740221]

Yes, leave the rack power but lose the pump and lines.


Does the "everything" include you?

No driver. The intercooler must weigh 30 pounds alone.

[karlak]

Power steering rack minus power steering pump. You see what it did for this guy.