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Thread: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

  1. #481
    Garrett booster
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    That's fine Wayne.

  2. #482
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    But that was my Spirit, 13.02 @ 108. Sadly never into the 12's with it,
    Your Spirit deserves a come-back of its own. Even though I never was able to catch up with my shadow.

  3. #483
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan H View Post
    Your Spirit deserves a come-back of its own. Even though I never was able to catch up with my shadow.
    It retired from racing in favor of daily driving duties... But recently stopped daily driving when it would sporatically not start. I think there is a computer issue, but have not spent time troubleshooting. I think it may be in the same boat both other cars were and in need of engine rebuild.

    Its kind of a shame.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  4. #484
    turbo addict
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    When I tune the PEFTBL with a turbo that will creep I let the flapper flap in the breeze, and then just take off the i/c pipe to the TB. 1 or 2 runs should be fine and not hurt anything. This get's me very close then I just put everything back together, and tune in the upper gears where I can get lower boost if possible and work my way up. That ATP swingvalve really flows, my buddies mini will hit 15psi at 4200 even with the WG ported.

  5. #485
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    I thought my housing had the wastegate ported out, but now it seems it wasn't, or wasn't ported much.
    I resolved months ago to do just what you mentioned, but then thought differently after some feedback.
    I was thinking it may be possible to partially cover/plug the intercooler plumbing to create some backpressure to the compressor to help it from overspinning. I don't want to run the risk of damaging anything. But then i thought who knows what the pressure in the pipes and intercooler would spike to.
    Also wouldn't need pipes flopping around in the engine bay with 30+ psi shooting out of a plug orifice.
    Have you used that method on a DBB turbo? There really isn't any drag to keep this thing from spinning up.
    I'm open to suggestions though. It might be that i just need to try this.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  6. #486
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    I dont think there is a safe way to keep the turbo from overspinning with no charge hoses on it. I think you should just do what you've been doing incrementally letting it go higher and fine tuning it, or bite the bullet and take it off and fix it.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  7. #487
    turbo addict
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    with the WG flapping in the breeze it shouldn't spin a significant amount of rpm more than if you had the pipes hooked up. It overspins a lot if you have the WG shut and the pipes disconnected because it's trying to make boost.

    Port the hole some more, let it flap in the breeze and go for 2-3 pulls with the pipes disconnected. I'd be more ready to do it on a DBB turbo than a journal bearing one. I wouldn't do it if I thought any harm would come to it. Like I said we did it on a friends mini and his turbo is still going strong, and that's a little T2 turbo. We got the PEFTBL right in 2 pulls through 3rd gear. I start at 1500rpms and floor it till my rev limit in 3rd. Still takes quite a bit of room in a minivan pushing all that wind.

  8. #488
    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    I thought my housing had the wastegate ported out, but now it seems it wasn't, or wasn't ported much.
    Turbine housing to header was ported/port matched. Porting of wastegate hole should be done incrementally as needed.

    If you need a larger flapper let me know. We have 38mm versions being machined for us.

    The GTX Billet compressor wheels are stronger then the cast version that you have Wayne. You don't want to explode the cast wheel by over speeding and negate the abradeable material we applied on the compressor cover.

    Thanks!

    ChrisTU
    Chris Wright www.TurbosUnleashed.com Chris@TurbosUnleashed.com 602-76-BOOST Tech/Sales#: 7 days a week 9AM-7PM MST Proudly Serving the Turbo-Mopar Community since 1997 TU is a performance, not marketing company. We provide accurate performance data on all our performance products. Fabricating data to make us appear better is just not our style. Do the research before you buy. ROCK BOTTOM PRICES WITHOUT THE HIDDEN HANDLING FEES.... -----HOME OF THE 9 SECOND FWD T-M CLUTCH----- CARS FOR SALE 1986 Omni GLHS #299 61k miles Many New Parts including Fresh Engine Build with Wisecos, New Turbo, Clutch, Performance Oil Pan, etc. - $14,000 http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/garage.php?do=user_garage_view&id=12

  9. #489
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    with the turbo making no boost, the exhaust energy will be way less so it shouldnt spin the turbo as fast as when the boost is creating more exhaust energy/volume.

    id put a cap over the outlet of the turbo with a 1/4"- 3/8" hole in it and a hose to the boost gauge. if it makes almost no boost, then its not spinning up much. if it suddenly makes 25psi, then you let off and rethink the scenario.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  10. #490
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    btw, i drove sean's van home from rochester to my house in warsaw (1hour) towing a daytona after the boost hose popped off the PVC coupler it was clamped to for the zillionth time.

    it really didnt sound like the turbo was spinning that fast. and it didnt hurt it.

    that said, i totally understand the caution.

    btw, you would be able to drag the brakes some with this method to take slow solid readings.

    you could tune the knock rpm/volts table easily too.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  11. #491
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    I really appreciate the input from you folks.

    When i got the van back after the rebuild i started by trying to tune the PEFTBL.
    The advice was to try to tune this table at as low boost as possible. So that starts the trouble. Minimum was like 10psi, and then it starts to creep anything over about 4000rpm.
    I did try to have the wastegate pumped all the way open. And it was, and i verified there was no leaking down. After the run it was still wide open. Although it was zero boost for a while, it still eventually overcame the flow through the open wastegate and made boost. Once it made 1psi, soon it made 3, then 7, then 10, then there was enough boost for it to create creep, and then the pressure climbed up to overboost (which at the time was set at 18psi iirc).

    I don't like taking chances with an expensive turbo.
    Unfortunately i am left with trying to tune with a less than optimal method.
    I am contemplating the removal of the header and turbo to
    1. Enlarge the wastegate port
    2. Machine the header for an external wastegate, with a blank plate.

    Although, if it is going to come apart, it is probably better to just do the external and be done with it.

    For now though, i have imported a snippet of the WB data for 1st gear into the PumpEffTbl tool. You can see i have guessed at bumping the curve up and out a bit. My rev limit is set at 6300, so anything much byond that is not really relevant. The yellow is the suggestion based on the imported data. I haven't saved anything yet.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    If i get to the point of removing the turbo, or machining the header for an external WG, then i will have to retune properly regardless.

    I see Chris' point too about wastegate port sizing. You really want to have the minimum size you need with this internal, because as you increased the exposed surface area of the puck, now there is more force trying to push it open, and that can get to a point of needing a stiffer wastegate acutator spring (thereby increasing minimum boost).
    The "problem" is this turbo is so damn good. It is more efficient than a fresh out of the box unit. It is moving so much air it easily overcomes the wastegate. I thought as boost increased it might get to a point where the creep stops. But there is never enough backpressure to slow it down.

    All things considered, there are much worse problems to complain about!
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  12. #492
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    If i were doing it i would port what you have because it's not prohibitively expensive/tedious to do it all over again if needed. If i couldnt do it myself for whatever combination of reasons i'd want to get that EWG installed right off the bat and never mess with boost creep again.

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  13. #493
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    i think the peftbl change is a little bit too much. you arent lean up there really.

    id put the line between the old and the new.

    the peftbl estimator seems to be a little closer but still needs some tweaking.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

  14. #494
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    If i were doing it i would port what you have because it's not prohibitively expensive/tedious to do it all over again if needed. If i couldnt do it myself for whatever combination of reasons i'd want to get that EWG installed right off the bat and never mess with boost creep again.
    I hear you and i would like to go that route, if i knew it would be enough. Since it needs some type of action, i would rather do something once. That is why my thought was leaning towards EWG. Although i would prefer to have what i have work properly. I don't even know if the wastegate port could be opened up enough to prevent creep on this build.

    The hangup is more about me just not wanting to take it apart. I was at the point i just didn't have the time or means to put it all together, so i had to take it to a professional.

    I am considering some other changes to be done at the same time, so if i did just take it back to Brian it would be worthwhile. I'd like some type of heatshield under the intake for one thing.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  15. #495
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo View Post
    i think the peftbl change is a little bit too much. you arent lean up there really.

    id put the line between the old and the new.

    the peftbl estimator seems to be a little closer but still needs some tweaking.

    Brian
    Here's the part i don't think you could see.
    This is the table unchanged, and i have imported the data from run#2 at Fayetteville.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The suggestion again reaches near 100%.
    That previous pic i had just brought the curve up to meet the suggestion about 4000rpm.
    Do you think i should shift the entire curve to the right? Or just bump the curve out a bit?
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  16. #496
    turbo addict
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    The WG hole on my S60 housing was opened up to 1.25" since the TU 3" SV had a 1.375" flapper. I never had any issue with the flapper being pushed open with the stock big can actuator.

    If you pump up the actuator all the way does the WG open as far as if it were just disconnected? Easy enough to disconnect the WG arm and leave the hoses connected and see if you get any boost.

  17. #497
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    You are flowing a lot more air than a stock 2.5 which is what that table is based on. It's also dependant a lot on what intake manifold is on the car. I looked a long time ago at the 87 vs 88 T2 curves look liked and the 87 curve was higher in the upper rpms. With the intake you have, exhaust, turbo etc, I'd bump it up and out. Try and get the boost level to zero and not creeping and do some pulls. Just watching the tach and the wideband should allow you to tweek the table to be perfect with 1 or 2 pulls.

    an N/A mini in 3rd will not require you to stand on the brakes to slow the car down to get better data, it's dog slow.

  18. #498
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    The WG hole on my S60 housing was opened up to 1.25" since the TU 3" SV had a 1.375" flapper. I never had any issue with the flapper being pushed open with the stock big can actuator.

    If you pump up the actuator all the way does the WG open as far as if it were just disconnected? Easy enough to disconnect the WG arm and leave the hoses connected and see if you get any boost.
    I wonder though if it could be opened up enough. I think the fact that this is a ball bearing turbo, it really requires a larger wastegate, since it takes less to spin it up to pressure.

    I pumped the actuator up to 25-30 psi, so it was open as far as the srm would travel i imagine. But, i could disconnect it. It is a bit of a tight squeeze with this .63 turbine housing and the 2pc lower manifold. That is why i opted to pump the actuator. I could try again though, it would be less work than removing turbo.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  19. #499
    Slugmobile & MeanMini Caretaker Turbo Mopar Contributor wheming's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    At 3000rpm I'm doing 70 in 3rd gear. I don't think I'll ever hit redline in 3rd on these streets!
    Even second gear i'm nearing 100 when i shift to 3rd and i don't think I'm at rev limit.
    Wayne H.

    '91 Dodge Spirit ES 2.5L turbo 5spd
    '05 PT GT 2.4T HO autostick
    '89 Plymouth Acclaim 2.5L turbo auto, "Slugmobile" yes, THE Slugmobile!
    '89 Dodge Caravan SE 2.5L turbo auto, "Mean Mini" yes, Gus' Mean Mini! (Current best 11.7786@113.04 mph! - Jan 15th, 2017 Fayetteville Dragway, NC)
    MeanMini dragracing videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...URZLB1RxGYF6vw
    and other cars, trucks and motorcycles
    https://www.youtube.com/user/SlugmobileMeanMini

  20. #500
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: Intro and Update: Slugmobile and Mean Mini! (long read, but worth it)

    Quote Originally Posted by wheming View Post
    Here's the part i don't think you could see.
    This is the table unchanged, and i have imported the data from run#2 at Fayetteville.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1437504897592.jpg 
Views:	22 
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ID:	55674
    The suggestion again reaches near 100%.
    That previous pic i had just brought the curve up to meet the suggestion about 4000rpm.
    Do you think i should shift the entire curve to the right? Or just bump the curve out a bit?
    i dont trust the suggested line like i said before. look at it. its crazy looking. all wiggly and stuff. in your logs you have spurious lean afr's for some reason even at WOT. i think the simulator is going to take those into account.

    i suggest not changing anything.

    heres why. look at run 3's log. the AFR's are all over the place..... until 2nd and 3rd gear. especially when it hits 3rd gear. the boost rises up and the van accelerates as slow as its going to as its in high gear and the load is high.

    look at the afr's. they are real rich. they are safe. they are in the 10's.

    i think if you raise the pumping efficiency to what the line suggests, its going to go deep into the 9's for AFR and pop and fart and slow down.

    i do think you should make a pass at the drag strip or on the street hammering the brakes in 2nd up to redline right after it shifts into 2nd. you are getting some knock near the shifts and at high boost. is it as good as holding an RPM completely still while loading it to the max?, no, but it will add load and slow things down so you can get alot more data points per time period. if you do that and then feed just that data into the PEFTBL simulator you will get much different results.

    you may get even more knock retard if you hammer the brakes to increase the load. then you can dial in the timing a little bit more.

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    You are flowing a lot more air than a stock 2.5 which is what that table is based on. It's also dependant a lot on what intake manifold is on the car. I looked a long time ago at the 87 vs 88 T2 curves look liked and the 87 curve was higher in the upper rpms. With the intake you have, exhaust, turbo etc, I'd bump it up and out. Try and get the boost level to zero and not creeping and do some pulls. Just watching the tach and the wideband should allow you to tweek the table to be perfect with 1 or 2 pulls.

    an N/A mini in 3rd will not require you to stand on the brakes to slow the car down to get better data, it's dog slow.
    look at his 3rd log. every wideband point in 2nd and 3rd gear is in the 10's for afr. more fuel isnt needed.

    Brian

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman
    This one is easy, I have myself to blame, I rush things, don't pay attention to gauges when I should, change to much stuff at once then expect miracles, the list is endless.

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