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Thread: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

  1. #1
    Mitsu booster
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    How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    I'm going with a nicely rebuilt 2.2 common block for the new motor in my '87 LeBaron. The current motor is grenaded, but it is attached to a decent A520. Right before I got the car it got a T3 pressure plate, new throw-out bearing and stock Omni clutch installed all of which saw very few miles of use. I'm thinking to beef up my transmission setup I'll be adding a chrome-moly bearing retainer plate (to prevent flexing) and a four-puck ceramic clutch disk (for sick-nasty launches).

    This is the friction disk in question:

    http://www.fwdperformance.com/Store/...&ProductID=993

    Anyone out there use one of these on the street? I don't need something tame, just livable. I've already gotten used to the fairly significant clutch pedal effort imposed by the T3 pressure plate. Would this combined with the mentioned clutch disk be aggressively fun or just a too-grabby chattering nightmare on the street? I've driven a few fairly aggressive manual transmission cars. My old man got the clutch on his M3 replaced with a 6-puck ceramic unit and its not bad at all (though that car has a hydraulic clutch pedal which makes things easier). How about the one I've got picked out?

    Also, any recommendations on where to buy a stand-alone clutch disk? I find that because manufacturers don't want idiots pairing a brand new friction disk with a worn out pressure plate and throw-out bearing they tend to sell clutches only as complete kits. The one at FWD seems kindof overpriced given that you can get a higher-quality ACT 6-puck clutch disk for just over $100, just can't find them for the transaxle I have :-(

  2. #2
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor glhs727's Avatar
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    I drove a 4 puck on several daily drivers without an issue. I use a 6 puck ceramic on my current daily driver.
    FWD Performance is a performance shop with a significant investment in this market. We pride oursleves with a hard work ethic, friendly customer service, and honest business dealings with no hidden fees. FWD Performance, Real Race Products by Real Racers.

  3. #3
    TIIFIIIWII Turbo Mopar Staff DodgeZ's Avatar
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    The pucks chew up the flywheel and PP quickly
    2022 Viper runs 9s

  4. #4
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    I drove on an FWD 4 puck in the Charger for over 5 years. When I took it apart the wear really wasn't that bad. Although I did a 500 mile break-in.

    I've seen ppl go through a disc in less than a year and chew the Sh!T out of their flywheel and PP. Wasn't bad to drive at all, just need to leave at slightly higher RPM.

    Robert Mclellan
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  5. #5
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    Heh, well I could see where the harder ceramic friction material could be tough on the flywheel and pressure plate. I suppose a lot of that comes down to how talented you are with a manual tranny. I tend to rev-match quite well on the upshifts as well as down-shifts. With the flywheel and input shaft spinning at pretty near the same RPM each time the clutch is re-engaged the only time its gonna see major wear is when coming away from a standing start (or hard launches ). This is how my old man taught me to drive, he's managed to get 150,000 miles out of the original clutch on his '97 M3 and he doesn't exactly drive without aggression! (Also, he didn't buy it new, who knows how poorly the yahoo who owned it before shifted).

    So as long as someone out there has gotten good wear characteristics out of one then I can do it too. I'm going to have to do a fairly long and gentle break-in period as my re-built motor will have all new rings and bearings. Because of that I'll be babying the thing around for the first couple hundred miles anyway.

    Any opinions on sourcing a stand-alone performance-oriented clutch disk for the "small spline" A525/A520/A555 transaxles? I'd really like a 6 puck but all I've managed to find is FWDP's stand-alone 4.

  6. #6
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    Are you looking for solid hub or sprung? Cause the Dodge sprung 6 puc ACT discs I've looked at are more like 150.00 and that would come from mass production. Solid hub would be cheaper, 120 ish.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  7. #7
    turbo addict
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    I drive with a 6 puck ceramic TU clutch. Its not bad to drive at one you get used to it. pedal effor is the same as stock. You do have to leave at a high rpm, other wise you will shake the crap out of your car. I usually give it a quick rev to get the rpms up to 2k, rpm and feather the clutch.

  8. #8
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Are you looking for solid hub or sprung? Cause the Dodge sprung 6 puc ACT discs I've looked at are more like 150.00 and that would come from mass production. Solid hub would be cheaper, 120 ish.
    Definitely want a sprung hub, a solid hub would be way too chattery on the street. I really like ACT clutches but couldn't find any that fit my car. Perhaps they made clutches for the later large-spline A523/A568 transaxles, I have not seen any for the small spline units. I got excited when I saw this:

    http://www.autopartsauthority.com/pa...87&No=0&Npp=10

    But they list the fit for engine/chassis as "universal" which I know can't be right.


    "more revs from a standing start" sounds to be the general consensus, I can definitely live with that.

  9. #9
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    its possible to be COMPLETELY smooth with a 4 puck. BUT if you dont give it enough rpm it will shake like a mofo.

    So it really depends on how often you drive it..

    Like in the aries (4 puck) when i drive it often i get used to it, remember the extra rpm, and its smooth.. but if i get out of it for a few weeks or a month, the next time i try to move it i usually slam/bang my way into motion and go 'oh yeah, gotta remember that extra rpm'. Lol

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  10. #10
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrunkenMessiah View Post
    Definitely want a sprung hub, a solid hub would be way too chattery on the street. I really like ACT clutches but couldn't find any that fit my car. Perhaps they made clutches for the later large-spline A523/A568 transaxles, I have not seen any for the small spline units. I got excited when I saw this:

    http://www.autopartsauthority.com/pa...87&No=0&Npp=10

    But they list the fit for engine/chassis as "universal" which I know can't be right.


    "more revs from a standing start" sounds to be the general consensus, I can definitely live with that.
    Ha, universal sprung hub 6 puck for 111.00, no wonder you were drooling!

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
    Manitoba's Fastest 4cyl!
    8 valve, No Nitrous!
    New clutch combo is the SH!T!

  11. #11

    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    I drive daily on a 4-puck, and have for a few thousand miles. Its really not bad.

  12. #12
    turbo addict
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    I've driven with 2 of them in my R/T. Niether were real bad to drive, chattery and the extra RPM from a stop that everyone else is reporting. I really like the 6 puck from TU in the car now, a bit smoother engagement than the 4 puck and it grabs just as well as the 4 puck with the slicks. If I hadn't planned on running the car on slicks at the track I would have gone with a full faced clutch and saved some cash most likely
    “If the people of the nation understood our banking and monetary system, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.” -Henry Ford

  13. #13
    turbo addict
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    well, how bout this

    how much pwer do you PLAN on making?

    what other mods do you have?

    and what do you plan on doing with the car? of coarse DD, but do you plan on takin it to the track, AND run slicks?

  14. #14
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniLuvr View Post
    well, how bout this

    how much pwer do you PLAN on making?

    what other mods do you have?

    and what do you plan on doing with the car? of coarse DD, but do you plan on takin it to the track, AND run slicks?
    It is to be a daily driver. I might take it down to the 1/8th mile every now and then but I can never see myself dropping cash on a good set of slicks. However, I plan to run two separate sets of wheels/tires for summer/winter duty, so the street tires I do run will be fairly grippy. The motor is basically a juiced-up TII jobbie based on a 2.2 common block, stock intercooler (for now) and custom calibration from boostbutton. 12 pounds of boost with 16 pounds of over-boost.

    The thing is, I believe I've scored a Mexican "C" block with all-forged internals. In the near future the engine will see significant porting, polishing and bigger injectors so that I can push my TII turbo to the edge of its efficiency map. I may even go beyond that well before it is time to change the clutch again. The TI Omni unit I have now was gonna be inadequate no matter what, but I wanted to go with something a little stronger than necessary to support future mods.

  15. #15
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Turbo224's Avatar
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    Its very livable, but certainly not comfortable. I have a four puck in my R/T and its really not bad.

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  16. #16
    turbo addict
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    well, with a stock turbo, and no porting, i cant see you getting over 250 hp, and if you dont plan on using slicks, i dont see you needing anything more then a 6 puck, or even a stockish setup like your running now. my friend just picked up a sprung hub for puck for his charger from a place called clutchnet or clutch.net? i think it was only 120, but its the same scenario as everyone else is sayin, higher rpms or there will be some shakin.

    i was making 220ish hp in my omni on a used t2/t3 clutch for over a year, only thing that made it slip was the external oil leak from my head directly onto the clutch. i know there is a pretty big weight diff from an omni to a daytona, but im just sayin. the t2/t3 clutch held up nicely in my tona also, but i only overboosted a couple times to 18psi (with no problems) and ran a constant 14 all the time.

  17. #17
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    Screw the puck, go w/ a HD full disc. I have a 6-puck in my Daytona, and it's not really bad, but not really great either. If you don't get the revs high enough, or if you don't get it just right, it shakes the hell out of the car, feels like the motor mounts are about to rip out. Now that I'm used to it it's not bad, I can even let it out smoothly at a fairly low rpm, but it's still kind of a pain sometimes. Next one I get will be a full-face disc.
    Rob M.
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  18. #18
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniLuvr View Post
    well, with a stock turbo, and no porting, i cant see you getting over 250 hp, and if you dont plan on using slicks, i dont see you needing anything more then a 6 puck, or even a stockish setup like your running now. my friend just picked up a sprung hub for puck for his charger from a place called clutchnet or clutch.net? i think it was only 120, but its the same scenario as everyone else is sayin, higher rpms or there will be some shakin.

    i was making 220ish hp in my omni on a used t2/t3 clutch for over a year, only thing that made it slip was the external oil leak from my head directly onto the clutch. i know there is a pretty big weight diff from an omni to a daytona, but im just sayin. the t2/t3 clutch held up nicely in my tona also, but i only overboosted a couple times to 18psi (with no problems) and ran a constant 14 all the time.
    If I had a proper T2/T3 setup I wouldn't be worrying about a clutch at all! The better 1700 lbs of clamping force from the T3 pressure plate tends to make a T2 clutch perform very well.

    Problem is, the guy who had the car before me replaced the clutch kit right before I purchased the car. Because of some confusion between large spline/small spline clutches and a sortof mail-order parts-return merry-go-round he ended up with a baffling T1/T3 clutch kit! He is certain that it is a T1 Omni clutch disk. Is there any way to visually tell the difference between a stock T1 and stock T2 clutch disk? Perhaps he is incorrect. He was a good guy, but could be fuzzy on mechanical details (reason why I got the car, he couldn't make it run).

    Quote Originally Posted by Force Fed Mopar View Post
    Screw the puck, go w/ a HD full disc. I have a 6-puck in my Daytona, and it's not really bad, but not really great either. If you don't get the revs high enough, or if you don't get it just right, it shakes the hell out of the car, feels like the motor mounts are about to rip out. Now that I'm used to it it's not bad, I can even let it out smoothly at a fairly low rpm, but it's still kind of a pain sometimes. Next one I get will be a full-face disc.
    I have been looking everywhere for full-faced higher-than-OEM-performance clutches that are sold on their own without a pressure plate. This is really my ideal solution, but I cannot find one anywhere! Do you have any suggestions on where to source one?

  19. #19
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    I may be wrong, but I don't believe there is a difference between the TI and TII disks. They are the same dia if I'm not mistaken.

  20. #20
    Mitsu booster
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    Re: How livable is a 4 puck ceramic clutch?

    Quote Originally Posted by cordes View Post
    I may be wrong, but I don't believe there is a difference between the TI and TII disks. They are the same dia if I'm not mistaken.
    Oh, well..... Sh1t. If that's the case then all this scrounging may have been for nothing.

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