2.2 carb jetting and stuff

[contraption22]

I havent't picked up the 2.2/2.5 FWD book in a long time, but figured I would re-, read some of the carb content again since I am going to be playing with my Rampage.

It does't give much info in the way of performance tuning, but it does mentioned that the HO 2.2 motors were jetted a bit richer than standard 2.2's among other modifications. I don't plan on tearing into this engine if I don't have to but since I have the carb apart for a rebuild, it might not be a bad idea to jet up a bit, especially with today's methanol blended fuels. I figure the carbs were probably jetted as lean as possible from the factory to begin with.

I was thinking about using what the book listed for HO jetting, which was 151 primary, and 429 seciondary.

Anybody think this is a good idea, or recommend anything else to do with the factory non-feedback carb while I have it off?

[ScottD]

I have two spare MP jet kits for the Holley carb, both are complete with all jets, one of them if I recall has never been opened. If you are interested let me know, that would give you more jets to play with.

Are you doing any other mods in addition to the jets?

I thought I would have to up the jets on the Weber I put on my Turismo because I am running a ported head, MP +1 valves, and a 2.25 exhaust, but the af ratio looks good. I'm not sure how my set up would have responded with the Holley though.

[contraption22]

At this time, I don't plan on doing any other modifications to the carb setup, except cleaning up or eliminating the emissions stuff.

[ATaylorRacing]

Let me share my experience on the jetting that I have used on Matchbox....every since 1984!!!

110 hp HO motor had 151/429
Mopar Perf carb had 219/325
Mopar Book said to use 191/347
Ed Peters said to use 240/400
On the stock carb I used only 5 seets of jets from 1984-6/24/00...each time I was trying to make it more and more consistant for bracket racing, keeping it safe for WOT applications, and being able to poer brake it at 2600 rpm for minutes if needed for guys messing with me on the starting line. I was trying to jet it so the EGTs would stay no hotter than a cetain temp while doing this. The jets used were:
245/351
287/455
267/455
267/423
245/423
I had switched to a non-feedback Holley way back in June of 2000 and used the following jets:
245/455
267/423
267/455
In 2001 I used only two sets:
281/455
287/423
In 2002 I used only two sets:
287/404
287/417
The car sat for a few years becasue the motor was totally worn out and in July of 06 a 2.5 was installed with no balance shafts. I used the stock 2.2 intake and header on it. I drove it for a tiny bit with the following larger jets for the bigger motor....even though the 2.5 had a 410 roller cam compared to the 500 Lambros cam that was in it the extra cubes demanded more fuel or my EGTs were going nuclear JUST by highway driving since the secondary remained shut...I used
335/417 for one day and the next day I used the following while driving a 100 mile rode trip just for this purpose:
357/417
357/455
374/524
398/524
423/525
423/537
I drove the car to SDAC at Topeka the next week and changed to:
423/524
In August I changed to:
423/467 (the 467 was custom drilled)
In 2007 I used two sets:
423/417
404/417
In 2008 I used two sets:
404/404
404/423
In 2009 I used two sets:
404/404
404/423
Then I went through 5 different sets but I could not get the consistancy I needed since the carb was actually junk. It was not unusual for Matchbox to run within .01 on every pass in race...at the ET Finals that year I ran within .01 on every pass for a three day span!!! (A better reaction time finally beat me when I was down to 9 cars out of nearly 200 in Sportsman)

The Weber 32/36 was put on in March of 2010 and its jets were TINY
137/140
...just driving to the track opening day in April it was way too lean and at anything over 65 mph the EGTs were going nuclear. Once at the track I switched to:
335/357, then
417/455 that were the same as out of the Holley. The car was within .04 pass to pass and I changed jets only once since then....the car is back to within .01 on pass to pass while using
417/423.

Note, the Mopar jetting kit had P jets from159-191 and S jets 335-455. The following secondary jets were taken out of VW powered L bodies...they had huge secondarys....398, 417,524, and 537. Other jets found in their carbs were 219, 245, 267, and 287.

I never changed the air bleeds in the carb since they are decently matched to the carb from the factory.

[ScottD]

I would leave the stock jets in then. The 2.2 HO had a decked block and higher compression, a different cam sprocket (retarded 4 degrees) and later on a different cam. The base 2.2 in the Rampages did not have these features so if you're not doing any other mods and just want it to be a reliable driver in the short term, my inclination would be to leave the jets alone.

I found some info on the Holley 5200 here: http://www.surpluselectron.com/aaron/holley.htm

[bris09]

At least now I know why the Mopar Performance carb is too rich at part throttle.

Scott, what would you want for one of the jet kits?

[ScottD]

$40 shipped would take one of the jet kits.

[contraption22]

Thanks all for your help and suggestions.

So you don't think that ANY jetting changes should be made? Even considering the Methanol in gasoline these days?

[ScottD]

I think if you are keeping it stock then keep the stock jetting. Larger jets to me aren't necessary if you aren't doing some mods. Also, even with the mods I've done, my a/f ratio has remained slightly rich with the small jets in the Weber I'm running. I imagine on my car if I went to a header that might necessitate a jet change, but currently I'm running the stock exhaust manifold. Angelo's Matchbox I think has a header and is one area where his car and my car are different, I'm guessing Angelo is running an open exhaust too whereas I'm running a full exhaust w/ no cat but a resonator and muffler.

If you're just going to get it reliably driving for the time being I'd rebuild the carb and remove the emissions garbage as you'd planned and worry about the jets when you start doing more mods. Although my experience with the Holley 6520 led me to just get the Weber, some others have had positive things to say about the Holley 5220, and a rebuild and no emissions stuff I think will get you up and running well.

The sentiment that carb'd 2.2s will never run well and are unreliable is a myth, I drive my Turismo all the time. I wonder if the emissions crap may be the real culprit, there was a TSB in the past for the carbs sucking up bits from the charcoal canisters, I took that out of the equation.

[bris09]

there was a TSB in the past for the carbs sucking up bits from the charcoal canisters, I took that out of the equation.

Been there done that and it sucks. Blocked the primary jet, if I kept my foot in it I was able to keep driving. When the secondary got blocked I was screwed. The shop replaced the canister and cleaned the carb but never bothered to clean the lines. Car left me sit in less than 2 miles. From that point on I do the majority of my own work and only trust one other person to work on my cars.

[contraption22]

Looking at getting back to rebuilding this carb.

It has some orangish/light brownish stuff in the fuel bowl. I've been told this is likely crap from the charcoal canister. I've tried regular carb cleaner to get rid of it, but it doesn't budge. Used a little wire weel on my dremel to remove most of it, but can't get it out of the little nooks and crannies.

Any suggestions on what to use on this?

Thanks,

Mike

[ScottD]

Do you have the carb otherwise disassembled i.e. anything rubber off it? If you do you could soak the body in carb cleaner. With my father's Road Runner we bought a gallon of carb cleaner and soaked the top and bottom halves of the carb for some time. Doing this may break up the deposits you are talking about. I would try soaking it this way for a while and then blowing out the orifices with compressed air.

[54inches]

Look what happens when you search.....

Exactly what emissions stuff have you guys removed in the past?

Just wondering as I am about to rebuild my carb and ran across this post.....

Thanks in advance!

[cordes]

Thanks for all the great info guys. Thanks especially to Scott for carrying the Carbed torch and sharing knowledge in all of these threads.

[ATaylorRacing]

Let me share my experience on the jetting that I have used on Matchbox....every since 1984!!!

110 hp HO motor had 151/429
Mopar Perf carb had 219/325
Mopar Book said to use 191/347
Ed Peters said to use 240/400
On the stock carb I used only 5 seets of jets from 1984-6/24/00...each time I was trying to make it more and more consistant for bracket racing, keeping it safe for WOT applications, and being able to poer brake it at 2600 rpm for minutes if needed for guys messing with me on the starting line. I was trying to jet it so the EGTs would stay no hotter than a cetain temp while doing this. The jets used were:
245/351
287/455
267/455
267/423
245/423
I had switched to a non-feedback Holley way back in June of 2000 and used the following jets:
245/455
267/423
267/455
In 2001 I used only two sets:
281/455
287/423
In 2002 I used only two sets:
287/404
287/417
The car sat for a few years becasue the motor was totally worn out and in July of 06 a 2.5 was installed with no balance shafts. I used the stock 2.2 intake and header on it. I drove it for a tiny bit with the following larger jets for the bigger motor....even though the 2.5 had a 410 roller cam compared to the 500 Lambros cam that was in it the extra cubes demanded more fuel or my EGTs were going nuclear JUST by highway driving since the secondary remained shut...I used
335/417 for one day and the next day I used the following while driving a 100 mile rode trip just for this purpose:
357/417
357/455
374/524
398/524
423/525
423/537
I drove the car to SDAC at Topeka the next week and changed to:
423/524
In August I changed to:
423/467 (the 467 was custom drilled)
In 2007 I used two sets:
423/417
404/417
In 2008 I used two sets:
404/404
404/423
In 2009 I used two sets:
404/404
404/423
Then I went through 5 different sets but I could not get the consistancy I needed since the carb was actually junk. It was not unusual for Matchbox to run within .01 on every pass in race...at the ET Finals that year I ran within .01 on every pass for a three day span!!! (A better reaction time finally beat me when I was down to 9 cars out of nearly 200 in Sportsman)

The Weber 32/36 was put on in March of 2010 and its jets were TINY
137/140
...just driving to the track opening day in April it was way too lean and at anything over 65 mph the EGTs were going nuclear. Once at the track I switched to:
335/357, then
417/455 that were the same as out of the Holley. The car was within .04 pass to pass and I changed jets only once since then....the car is back to within .01 on pass to pass while using
417/423.

Note, the Mopar jetting kit had P jets from159-191 and S jets 335-455. The following secondary jets were taken out of VW powered L bodies...they had huge secondarys....398, 417,524, and 537. Other jets found in their carbs were 219, 245, 267, and 287.

I never changed the air bleeds in the carb since they are decently matched to the carb from the factory.

An update on this matter....since I went from the 87 tall block 2.5 to the 92 common block my EGTs showed the new motor to run a bit richer than the old one! I went down to 404/417 and it was better, but not dead on. Antoher change to 404 on both sides made the car dead on!

Matchbox runs a stock 1984 exhaust manifold and intake. The head and cam is bone stock that came on the 92 common block. The 87 tall block had the balance shafts removed while the 92 common block still has them. I can't believe how smooth this motor is compared to the last. I never knew that the speedo cable made a noise until this motor was put in and I never knew that the front suspension made a noise either. As far as the remainder of teh exhaust, it has two mufflers on it...a Borla XR1 bullit that I won...too much $$ for me to spend (which still sounds like open header) and a muffler at the end that is normally ran unplugged...when I plug it the exhaust is rerouted through the muffler as if it were a turbo muffler, uncorked it acts like a straight pipe.

---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 PM ----------

The best thing to do is buy a big digital EGT gauge and use it as a tuning tool. If I had not had one my newly installed 87 block (in 2006) would have melted stuff on the way to Topeka KS from Kokomo, IN...I changed the jets to make it happy. Right now it helped me tune the new CB 2.5 in comparision to the old TB 2.5....If I did not have this the car would be a bit too rich and not nearly as consistant as it can be. The old jets that were 417/423 made the car a full tenth from pass to pass with the 92 motor in it...going to a 404/417 made it within .04, and the 404/404 combo made it run within .01!!!!!
(With no wind of course!)

[54inches]

Exactly what emissions stuff have you guys removed in the past?
Thanks in advance!

This

[ScottD]

This

All of it! See my project log for pics.

[Big_P]

This is an excellent thread.

ATaylorracing, what did you find to be the best jets for performance? It sure seems like you went through a ton of them!

---------- Post added at 11:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 PM ----------

Also, what were your 1/4 times?

I ask these questions because I've never had a carbed 2.2 am very intrigued.

[ATaylorRacing]

Old Matchbox was one of 84 Horizons to leave the factory with the HO drivetrain. The car bone stock was running 16.0s then dropped to 15.8s with an exhaust cut out AFTER the cat. Weight reduction, HARD launches, 500 cfm Holley 2 barrell, 500 lift Lambros cam, milled head with big valves got it one pass into the 13s, but I was tired of unibody damage, and 11 broken transmissions in the first 100,000 miles. It was stil in the late 80s when a stock 87 2.2 was put in place with an automatic, slowing it down to 18 flat!!! A Coan convertor brought it into the low 16s along with minor head/cam work. The best jets for all out drag racing AND consistancy have always been one in the same. When my EGTs are in the 1390 range the car runs its best on both of those fronts. Matchbox has NEVER been jetted for mpg, just safe ETS.
The bone stock HO set up carb with feed-back best jetting was 245/423
The best set up for the non-feedback Holley was 287/417
After a tall block 2.5 was put in I had to use secondary jets on the primary side to keep the EGTs in the same range as the old 2.2...best set up was 404/423
The Weber 32/36 went on it later with the 417/423 working the best
Late in the 2011 season a nice low mileage common block 2.5 was put in place of the tired tall block one and I was shocked that it needed less jetting to be its best...a combo of 404/404!

With the stock head/block/header 2.5 tall block the best it could run was 17 teens back in 2006. That was the same set up used at SDAC 21 when the car was running crappier mid 17s and the last time out it was running 17.7s with so much wrist pin slop that track officials thought I was dragging some chunks of metal under the car. I was at one tesst and tune with the newer common block 2.5 in it and one race later with the new jets set up perfectly with the car running 16.5s on the nose. Both 2.5s had untouched heads/blocks and the low lift 410 cams wopuld run the quickest when shifting at 5200 1-2 and 4750 at 2-3...less than a tenth quicker than shifting at 4750 on every shift, which also makes the car more consistant. Someday I might put a 460 roller in there, but the car is so perfect for bracket racing that I don't think I will...and how much would it gain???

[Vigo]

So it started in the 16s, went to the 13s, then went into the 18s, then back into the 16s. I have made cars slower and faster than stock, but usually not both on the same car! It has quite a history.