New rings without honing the cylinders?

[Rob S]

Hello all,

A supplier sent me a lightly-used short block with new rings and he specifically recommended against honing the cylinders before reassembly. He said it was important not to loose the factory cross-hatching. I am now having massive blow-by at the track. Does anyone have any idea why he would choose not to do this apparently basic thing?

- Rob

[shadow88]

Well, he's the best guy to ask, but I'll take a shot at it.

It's very easy to use a honing bar or the collection of grapes too much and end up removing too much wall material. It's also very easy to remove material and change the shape of the bore (ie more removed from the middle) It's a simple procedure, but not difficult to mess up.

Do you have a leakdown tester? If so, I'd like to hear the results. If not, how much blow by do you have?

[Rob S]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Leak down
Cyl 1: 12%
Cyl 2: 10%
Cyl 3: 12%
Cyl 4: 4%

Compression
Cyl 1: 140
Cyl 2: 145
Cyl 3: 150
Cyl 4: 150

It started blowing oil out the PCV vent and dipstick tube at a rate of 1 litre per hour from the moment we took it to the track.

I had asked him to re-surface the bores himself and, with his experience, I'm sure it would have been no problem so I can't understand why he felt it better not to. My engine assembler here accepted his opinion too and just slapped the head on. Now, days before a 2,200 km endurance race, we have an engine that can't hold itself together.

[Darkapollo]

If you can still see the factory cross hatching then you shouldnt need to re-hone it with a stone or bottle brush ('collection of grapes' ??)
Did you put the rings in or were they already installed?
If YOU put them in, did you accidently line up the ring gaps?

[Rob S]

If you can still see the factory cross hatching then you shouldnt need to re-hone it with a stone or bottle brush ('collection of grapes' ??)
Did you put the rings in or were they already installed?
If YOU put them in, did you accidently line up the ring gaps?

Well that's interesting that you think his logic might have held.

It was the supplier who installed the rings. I did think of the ring gap alignments but it seems like such an obviously mistake that I'm sure he wouldn't have made it. Also, it seems unlikely that this mistake would have been made on 3 cylinders.

[supercrackerbox]

What was your break in procedure?

[shadow88]

While those leakdown numbers aren't ideal, they're not THAT bad. I've seen running 2.2's with numbers in the high 80's and not have the oil comsumption problem you have. A liter on hour is huge!

Is there a possibility you have a valve cover with the baffles removed? How is your pcv set up?

[Darkapollo]

What was your break in procedure?

While those leakdown numbers aren't ideal, they're not THAT bad. I've seen running 2.2's with numbers in the high 80's and not have the oil comsumption problem you have. A liter on hour is huge!

Is there a possibility you have a valve cover with the baffles removed? How is your pcv set up?

+1 to both.

Did you break in the rings before flogging the engine at the track or drop it in an go

I had a PCV system that was missing the check valve and it would smoke like Dennis Leary.

[puppet]

Notice how both cylinders 3-4 have 150 compression but the leak down shows an 8% spread? Good example of why compression tests by themselves don't mean much. I'm gonna bet that 1-2-3 plugs are oil fouled pretty good ... #3 being the worst.

[Muertoloco]

i wonder how this plays out, because my #1 is eating oil. Compression was good (140) but i haven't done a leak down test, and my #1 exhaust valve is sticking.

[22shelby]

i wonder how this plays out, because my #1 is eating oil. Compression was good (140) but i haven't done a leak down test, and my #1 exhaust valve is sticking.

im going to guess the ring lands are cracked....i too had the same prob, top ring was fine, and compression was good, however, when i let off the throttle it would smoke, turned out i had 4 cracks in the piston....



as far as the oil burn on the new rings.... did you check the gaps be fro installation??? the move around quite easily..... the could have move during shipment... or the ring just havnt seated yet....

i just did a piston swap w/ new rings, but i honed, not a bit of blow by and i only have a few miles on them....but 2 or 3 wot romps too, i break my rings in hard.... per the link in the knowledge center....

[RoadWarrior222]

Okay, if you're ready for desperate measures...

Take the oil filter off, put another on, should have lost you about a pint of oil (You wont see it on the stick until you turn it over) replace with kerosene.

Take it out, find a hill, do hard acceleration up one side of the hill without going over about 5000RPM and engine brake it down the other side. Turn round, repeat x 10, then change the oil and filter out right away. Should have started the rings bedding.... see if blowby improved, if it is then try and get at least 1000km on it at moderate speeds in the 2500RPM range, to glaze/harden it off.

[Darkapollo]

Rings.. Did you put them in correctly? I know some ring sets for other cars (ive never replaced the rings on a dodge) have a slight taper to them that is directional. I believe it faces down.

[turbovanman²]

I've done it both ways, IF you can see the cross hatch but the old school in me still prefers to hone. If you use a ball hone, you don't remove enough metal to worry about.

Post up how you broke it in, and what type of rings?

I've had goodish leakdown numbers but still had oil being blown out, under boost, they just can't seal.

If it is the rings and your PCV system is ok, then try this, you might laugh but it works, this is from the old, old days, lol. Put AJAX or Comet in the cylinders thru the spark plug holes, 2 table spoons, disable HEP and crank over 10-20 secs, hook up HEP and go beat on it, this "grit" can seat the rings, has worked well on rings that didn't seat properly and if they don't seat after this, you need to redo it. It will take a few days to reseat.

[shadow88]

I detect a new saying thingy for dodgez. Whatever they're called.

Actually, I worked with an old timer who swore up and down the best break in on a new engine was about 20 seconds without oil. I never believed his methods to be acceptable, but he swore by them.

When I used to crack my hyperutectic (sp) pistons often, I used to toss in new pistons with new rings and no wall prep and never had a problem with oil comsumption. Countless times. I swear I put at least 11 pistons into one block with no wall prep.

[turbovanman²]

I detect a new saying thingy for dodgez. Whatever they're called.

Actually, I worked with an old timer who swore up and down the best break in on a new engine was about 20 seconds without oil. I never believed his methods to be acceptable, but he swore by them.

When I used to crack my hyperutectic (sp) pistons often, I used to toss in new pistons with new rings and no wall prep and never had a problem with oil comsumption. Countless times. I swear I put at least 11 pistons into one block with no wall prep.

Ask any old timer, lol, the stuff they used was called "bon ami" Google it,

And yes, your really supposed to install the rings dry, with a slight wiping of oil on the bore, not gooped in oil.

[onerippinturbo2]

my co-worker knew a guy that worked at the local ferrari dealer, they called him bonami balduzzi, his last name was balduzzi. he swore up n down about overhauling ferrari engines and using bonami to help seat the rings, this same guy also claimed to have an electric valve straightener no head removal to fix bent valves, but noone had ever seen that tool or witnessed a repair done by it.

[RoadWarrior222]

this same guy also claimed to have an electric valve straightener no head removal to fix bent valves, but noone had ever seen that tool or witnessed a repair done by it.

I could see a way to halfassed do it with an arc welder, by making an electrode to post through the plug hole and clamping the other on the top of it.. then the valve would get damn hot and might be persuaded straight.

[puppet]

Just to clarify the bon ami thing ... that was never put in the cylinders "dry". Was always mixed with a vehicle (light oil) to a thin consistency like milk.

[A.J.]

Ask any old timer, lol, the stuff they used was called "bon ami" Google it,

And yes, your really supposed to install the rings dry, with a slight wiping of oil on the bore, not gooped in oil.

It's amazing the spread of "procedures" you get from different people. I dip my pistons in oil (with rings installed) before I put them in the engine.

I once was told (by my boss, a used car dealer/junkman) to use Bonami in an engine. I think I used to much because after I did it it wouldn't run and had literally zero compression. I took the engine apart and the Bonami had clogged the rings and they were stuck in the ring grooves. I had to tear the engine apart and re-ring it.

If you have to resort to pouring cleaner down your spark plug holes to fix anything, hang it up and get a f**kin' bus pass, you shouldn't own/be working on a car.

A.J.