41TE "Bullet Proofing"

[Reaper1]

Do you know anything about the prototype 3.0 turbo program? I remember that the 4 engines Rick Diogo sold back in the day were all hooked up to A604's. They didn't have the electronics. But, I wonder if the development stuff for that program was any more "performance" oriented and might be lurking on some 3.5" floppies someplace (or maybe even tape drive!).

There has been speculation as to how to attain the Prowler calibration and if it could possibly be flashed onto one of our contollers since either finding one of the Prowler TCM's is next to impossible or very expensive. Can this be done and how? I think remember having to get a Prowler VIN in order to be able to do that sort of thing.

How common was the Mexican 2.2 A604? I may have ways of sourcing them and I'm sure I'm not the only one that can get car parts from Mexico. Were those transmissions behind turbo or N/A engines?

[RattFink]

So on the Prowler, is the TCM separate from the PCM? If separate, is it the same part number as any other cars? The reason I ask is it seems like one could set a TCM up on a bench and wire it up to 12v power, ground, and any type of network needed. It may need the PCM on the network too, I am not familiar with Chrysler network architecture so much as I am on GM and Ford. Anyway, with a Prowler VIN number and a Universal Vehicle Programmer, one could purchase a 3 day subscription to Chrysler vehicle programming and flash the Prowler software onto a TCM. I have access to one of these: http://www.j2534reprogrammer.com/. The FAQ chart states All Chrysler TCM's and PCM's are supported for 1996 and newer. A 3 day subscription for Chrysler is $35. http://www.j2534reprogrammer.com/dow...es-per-OEM.pdf. A quick google search netted me a solid 100 VIN numbers posted on a Prowler forum... So a junkyard TCM and misc. wiring, a 12v power supply, an internet connection, $35, and a little experimentation and maybe we could get the Prowler code? Somebody please let me know if I am missing something here. I've been lurking on this thread awhile as I personally think the 41TE is a really good transmission and is the next obvious choice for us as there are still a million of them in junkyards and on the road.

[RattFink]

This also depends on how the Chrysler programming site works. On GM you can enter year/make/model and lie to it. There is USUALLY an option for any manufacturer to offer a manual setup for cases where the old module was destroyed so there would be nothing to pull old data off of. Ford calls this "as built" GM uses a different term but same concept.

[t vago]

Did some more digging around the 89 TCM source code - I think I have figured out how the code stores a working variable into RAM. Also deduced some basic hardware interfacing. Must do some more digging.

The current disassembly is here: 20150314_89TCM.zip

[RattFink]

Some google searching shows the Prowler TCM is a unique part number. That being said, some of the LH guys say they have swapped the 97 Prowler TCM into first gen LH's and it was plug and play.

[135sohc]

Until the Next Generation Controller came out in 2003 across the line the EATX was used, its the same 60 way connector used on the SMEC/SBEC

[Shadow]

From what I remember it was the high current Fast switching solenoids that were key in making this all work. The A/M controller Steve used kept overheating with regular (longer) term operation, like driving around, upshifting and downshifting.

Standalone EMS like the AEM have built in trans controllers. (low input/ output) Would it be easier to dissect the controller unit and make it interface with a separate "brain", using the hard pieces of the puzzle that have proven longevity and integrating them with our own controller?

Or would that be like starting from scratch? (lose the benefit of all of the programing already at our disposal)

[Vigo]

The shift speeds were set so high during development that the accessory belt would fall off due to the inertial force of the alternator during the 6600RPM WOT up-shift and why ORC's were incorporated on later alternators.

Wow, i always wondered why those over running clutches just started appearing when alternator pullies 'seemed' to have been working out just fine for decades. Very interesting!

While supportive of the Auto-stick shifter, the CCD version of that controller could be used if the engine pulse train from the crank signal duplicated/produces the signal as received from the 3.5L V6.

As far as i know, the 3.3/3.8 already generate identical CPS signals to a 3.5. Assuming the bolt pattern on the end of the crank is oriented the same way in regards to the crank throws, a 3.3/3.8 (or even 2.5L from cloud car/avenger) flexplate with the trigger ring could be bolted to the old 3.0 crank, and the CPS mount could be drilled into the bellhousing if needed, although obviously the factory 3.0/604 cars made do with what the distributor was giving out.

I dont think such a flexplate exists for the 4cylinders because the 4 cylinders moved their trigger ring inside the engine block on the 2.0/2.4s.

How did the Mexican 2.2/2.5 604s get their rpm signal? The 3.0 uses a relatively high resolution trigger wheel on its distributor. If the stock sensor could be made to read it, we could make such a wheel for the stock 2.2/2.5 distributor.

[Vigo]

Some google searching shows the Prowler TCM is a unique part number. That being said, some of the LH guys say they have swapped the 97 Prowler TCM into first gen LH's and it was plug and play.

I used to own a 3.5 intrepid that was autostick-swapped. It still had a very annoying 5500rpm forced 3-4 upshift in autostick and 4800 in regular OD position. I briefly looked into getting my tcm flashed to the prowler code (which doesnt force upshifts at all and will let you bang the rev limiter in every gear) but i didnt have any contacts in chrysler dealers at that time and the car went away before it ever got done.

HOWEVER, i still have the ~96-97 Autostick tcm. It is the same a606 TCM as a prowler would use, just with an intrepid file on it. If you think you can flash it i can mail it to you. But, I never did the repinning to adapt it to my 1990 3.8 604 dynasty as was always the plan, so until i do that i don't know how to verify whether or not the reflash worked.

Also, one part of that swap that i never figured out is that the TCM relies on the Transmission Range Sensor to tell it when you have the shifter in the autostick position. The older 604s didnt have the same TRS as the less-old ones. I'm not sure what i need to do about that, yet.

[RoadWarrior222]

The 3.0 uses a relatively high resolution trigger wheel on its distributor. If the stock sensor could be made to read it, we could make such a wheel for the stock 2.2/2.5 distributor.

Though if I were doing it, I'd find how to make a 3.0 dizzy fit a 4 cyl, find a cap and rotor to make fit... that's half coz I have something of a psychotic hatred for those diz and any excuse to get rid of it works

[5DIGITS]

So on the Prowler, is the TCM separate from the PCM? If separate, is it the same part number as any other cars? The reason I ask is it seems like one could set a TCM up on a bench and wire it up to 12v power, ground, and any type of network needed. It may need the PCM on the network too, I am not familiar with Chrysler network architecture so much as I am on GM and Ford. Anyway, with a Prowler VIN number and a Universal Vehicle Programmer, one could purchase a 3 day subscription to Chrysler vehicle programming and flash the Prowler software onto a TCM. I have access to one of these: http://www.j2534reprogrammer.com/. The FAQ chart states All Chrysler TCM's and PCM's are supported for 1996 and newer. A 3 day subscription for Chrysler is $35. http://www.j2534reprogrammer.com/dow...es-per-OEM.pdf. A quick google search netted me a solid 100 VIN numbers posted on a Prowler forum... So a junkyard TCM and misc. wiring, a 12v power supply, an internet connection, $35, and a little experimentation and maybe we could get the Prowler code? Somebody please let me know if I am missing something here. I've been lurking on this thread awhile as I personally think the 41TE is a really good transmission and is the next obvious choice for us as there are still a million of them in junkyards and on the road.

Good info.
The key is insuring the engine pulse per rev can be programmed.
Without this, it is a dead issue.

[5DIGITS]

Do you know anything about the prototype 3.0 turbo program?
I remember that the 4 engines Rick Diogo sold back in the day were all hooked up to A604's.
They didn't have the electronics.
But, I wonder if the development stuff for that program was any more "performance" oriented and might be lurking on some 3.5" floppies someplace (or maybe even tape drive!).
There has been speculation as to how to attain the Prowler calibration and if it could possibly be flashed onto one of our contollers since either finding one of the Prowler TCM's is next to impossible or very expensive.
Can this be done and how?
I think remember having to get a Prowler VIN in order to be able to do that sort of thing.
How common was the Mexican 2.2 A604?
I may have ways of sourcing them and I'm sure I'm not the only one that can get car parts from Mexico.
Were those transmissions behind turbo or N/A engines?

The mexican 41TE was available behind a turbo engine.
I have a 2.2 41TE case here but am unsure if the bar code tag and PN remain.

It is common practice to make prototype units a bit more aggressive as it minimizes clutch heat generation during the dynamic portion of the shift.
This also means that TM (torque management) was typically more aggressive.

[5DIGITS]

I used to own a 3.5 intrepid that was autostick-swapped. It still had a very annoying 5500rpm forced 3-4 upshift in autostick and 4800 in regular OD position. I briefly looked into getting my tcm flashed to the prowler code (which doesnt force upshifts at all and will let you bang the rev limiter in every gear) but i didnt have any contacts in chrysler dealers at that time and the car went away before it ever got done.

HOWEVER, i still have the ~96-97 Autostick tcm. It is the same a606 TCM as a prowler would use, just with an intrepid file on it. If you think you can flash it i can mail it to you. But, I never did the repinning to adapt it to my 1990 3.8 604 dynasty as was always the plan, so until i do that i don't know how to verify whether or not the reflash worked.

Also, one part of that swap that i never figured out is that the TCM relies on the Transmission Range Sensor to tell it when you have the shifter in the autostick position. The older 604s didnt have the same TRS as the less-old ones. I'm not sure what i need to do about that, yet.

Also great points.
The TRS wing (as its called) in the trans must be implemented per the later design to determine manual valve position.
This (the TRS) was added to improve and support additional diagnostics.
The manual valve has intermediate states known as "temporary zones".
These zones can restrict hydraulic flow when the valve is not 100% in position.
When this situation is identified via the TRS, alternate clutch control methods are used to offset the fill and control parameters to avoid clutch damage.
Additionally, it became a way to electrically determine P/N to enable engine cranking and reverse detection for back up light control versus clutch pressure switch tests on the older units.
If I recall correctly, this requires an added machined hole in the case.

The forced upshift was absolutely an annoying feature.
The Prowler TCM (separate EATX) does address this along with the performance related features previously indicated.

[5DIGITS]

Some google searching shows the Prowler TCM is a unique part number. That being said, some of the LH guys say they have swapped the 97 Prowler TCM into first gen LH's and it was plug and play.

This is correct.
The only requirement (due to the use of the same engine) was to program the VIN.
If the the recipient car did not have A/S, then half the fun was missed.

Although...
Anyone who has driven one of these late 90's-early 2000 era vehicles can attest that the time delay between the A/S request and the shift is excessive.
This is due to the "off-schedule" shift strategy and the time required to fill the clutch and execute duty cycle portions of clutch control.
It would have been better had a near ballistic clutch apply approach been approved.

[5DIGITS]

How did the Mexican 2.2/2.5 604s get their rpm signal?

This has always been the actual crank tone ring or distributor signal equivalent.
In other words, it's a direct wiring tap to the TCM and only when faulted will the bus be used to acquire the signal.
In both cases, the signal must be 1:1 and accurate with engine speed so the TC LU control does not fault the system.

[5DIGITS]

With all this said....
The Prowler CCD package is the best approach and nearly hits the target shift points at or near where its needed for performance built 3.0L/2.2L application.

A Mexican 2.2L 41TE case was pursued as I intended to install it behind a 2.5L 16V for the Ultimate application.
This remains as an open item with all the necessary hardware in place to conquer the task.
The case requires machining to support the TRS system and added gussets are recommended between the trans case and differential housing.
The 604/41TE suffered in this area as the differential likes to walk away from the output gear and that's when the case is stressed.
Furthermore, the later differential with the non-roll-pin pinion shaft retaining tabs are highly recommended.
Additionally, the valvebody can be modified to support 2nd gear LU.
A prototype TC was built and tested where the LU clutch supported 400Ftlbs at standard line pressure but modifications were required to accomplish this level of capacity.

In summary, the 604/41TE is untapped potential for these applications due to its OD gearing, LU capabilities and related advantages (when properly applied) over the three speed.

[5DIGITS]

Did some more digging around the 89 TCM source code - I think I have figured out how the code stores a working variable into RAM. Also deduced some basic hardware interfacing. Must do some more digging.

The current disassembly is here: 20150314_89TCM.zip

Send me a PM and please be very specific with what your attempting and include the areas that your trying to focus on, in the PM.
If you are pursuing code dis assembly, I'll assist whenever and wherever possible.

[RattFink]

I feel confident I could flash a TCM with Prowler code. That being said time is of short supply for me so I don't want to borrow anybodys stuff then feel pressured. My next junkyard run I'll pick up a 97 LH tcm and pigtail and experiment flashing it with 97 Prowler code. I'm going to do some more research also. If anybody could get somebody to offer up a Prowler VIN number to use that'd be good as I don't feel right just snagging one off the internet!

[RoadWarrior222]

Get totalled out VINs from here, shouldn't cause problems http://www.prowleronline.com/cgi-bin...1000&SUBMIT=Go

[RattFink]

So the shortly lived Dodge Intrepid R/T and Chrysler 300M special were "performance" versions of their respective cars. Does anybody know if those TCMs had different programming? Also how about the PT Cruiser Turbo and PT Cruiser GT both of which used the 41TE.