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Thread: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

  1. #1
    boostaholic
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    41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    I decided to start a new thread for this since my thread about breaking my trans was heading in this direction.

    Let's discuss known methods and new theories on making the 41TE stronger here.

    I'll start by listing weaknesses starting with the weakest part 1st.

    1. 4th Gear.
    2. Torque Converter Clutch & Lock-up pin.
    3. Underdrive and Overdrive hubs.


    For the most part, problems with 1 and 2 can be avoided electronically.

    #1 can be avoided by careful driving using the auto-stick method to manually shift the transmission, however this method is not fool proof, you still can hit 4th with too much power and break it, as I have proven. The next step is to move up to a stand-alone transmission controller. However we're just avoiding the problem here. What if we actually need to put some power through 4th, say at the end of the 1/4?

    #2 is one of the few things that can actually be beefed up easily and relatively inexpensively by a good torque converter shop. I used Midwest Converters in Rockford IL to beef mine up for only $150. Stronger clutch material, and a billet lock-up pin should hold plenty of power. I haven't had the chance to put enough runs on it to say how well this is working yet or not though. You can also avoid damaging this part electronically by keeping it from entering lock-up whenever you plan to put a lot of power to the wheels. One method can be found here: http://www.allpar.com/fix/torque-converter.html A stand-alone transmission controller could also be used to do this.

    #3 These parts will show signs of wear on on the splines around the outside. These are caused by the clutch plates (steels) being made from a stronger material than the hubs. Heat and/or cryo treating these parts MAY be an option to make them stronger, but maybe not enough. Also as I've demonstrated (see pictures at http://www.custommopar.com/images/transmission), putting enough power through here can snap the shafts off the hubs.

    Other known things that can be done/used to improve the strength and performance of the 41TE:
    Alto Red Eagle Clutches (frictions) - These have been tested and proven in this trans.
    Raybestos gen2 Blue Plate Special clutches (frictions) - I haven't been able to find any evidence of anyone trying these yet.
    Valve body mods - AJ Berge his partner Jerry (TurboJerry) have some secrets for this that seem to work very well. RacerStev posted these mods to the valve body spacer that are supposed to help with a few things.


    The Trans-Go Shift kit is also an option for mild builds, but not quite enough for higher power.

    If there's anything I missed, please post it. That's all the known issues, fixes, and/or workarounds I could think of right now. I'll be back to ask more questions and get the theories flowing.

    Parts Schematic: https://www.wittrans.com/Schematic.a...nsmission=A604

    ATSG Repair Manuals: http://oskin.ru/pub/chrysler-dodge/m...ission_Repair/
    Last edited by SebringLX; 08-20-2010 at 04:39 PM.

  2. #2
    boostaholic
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    One thing I forgot in the OP... Transmission Cooler! Heat is the enemy on these, a transmission cooler helps out a ton. What are you guys using? I'm still using my stock transmission cooler. I changed the programming in my PCM to make the fans come on at a lower temp to help keep it cooler. It seems to be working out, but I may still add an after-market cooler.

    Another item worth mentioning for these trans is an LSD. I currently have the cheap-o Phantom Grip LSD. It works OK. Sometimes it can take several seconds before it will start spinning both wheels. I've done burnouts and only had the 1 wheel spin for them, then had it spin both wheels right off the line on the launch. It is possible to put an OBX or Quaife LSD in with the use of a spacer. I hear the OBX is a copy of the Quaife and considerably cheaper. I know a few people use them in other transmissions around here. Any opinions in this area?

  3. #3
    Garrett booster Turbo Mopar Contributor
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    I'll be following this thread... I'm a 5spd guy at heart but the thought of using MegaShift to control the trans, add in paddle shifting and possibly a transbrake is too much to resist. The car is going to be built as a 5spd, then possibly later converted over. I'm sure weight will help as I imagine a Shadow weighs less then your Sebring.

    Heat is a killer of all types of auto transmissions. Trans temps should be in the 180-200* range during normal operation and should never exceed 300*. Temps can be measured in the pan but for performance or towing applications the temp should be measured as close to the converter outlet as possible. Transmission fluid oxidizes (turns to varnish) with use and that oxidation doubles every 20* over approximately 180*. So fluid that would last 100k miles at 180* will only last 50k miles at 200*. At 280*, which is not enough to permanently damage the transmission, that same fluid has a life expectancy of around 3,000 miles. Above 300* and you are going to start warping parts, the fluid oxidizes immediately and can cause clutches to slip, etc.

    This all assumes you're measuring converter outlet temp. If you're measuring from the pan I would say limit it to 260-270 max.

    I would install a temp sensor and monitor your temps during normal operation. You want to be around 180* or so. Overcooling may become an issue but it's not as problematic as undercooling. The solution is to run your fluid through your aux cooler first, then through the radiator and that will help stabilize the temp. If you do get the trans hot, say at the strip or autox then you want to change the fluid out more often. How often depends on how hot...

  4. #4
    boostaholic
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    I'm not sure where my stock PCM reads the temp from. I have the fans setup to try and keep it around 180*, but I've never really measured it. I know warping hasn't been a problem from the few times the trans has been taken out and apart now. I do check the fluid quite regularly. Doesn't ATF+4 start to turn brownish if it's gotten too hot? I haven't seen it myself. Mine has stayed pretty much as reddish-pink as it comes out of the bottle. Then again the fluid has been replaced 4 or 5 times in the only 50k miles I have on the car.

    I'm still not completely sold on the MegaShift, I'm kind of leaning more towards the PCS, but I'm not done looking into both yet either. The transbrake idea definitely interests me. The paddle shifters not so much, as I already have auto-stick, and all of the paddle-shift set-ups I've seen don't look like they'd work with the stock steering wheel. Plus they are a bit expensive.

  5. #5
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    I have a little experience with the 41TE. The one I replaced in a 95 Caravan got it's temp from the engine coolant temp sensor. I'm guessing because the trans and engine share the same radiator. The read out (temp) on the scan tool (mine is a Snap-on Solus Pro) was the same for the engine as it was for the trans. I put a medium size trans cooler on that van, bypassing the radiator. I got it off of a Toyota Tundra. The trans temp after about a ten mile drive was 40 degrees cooler than the engine. I used an infrared temp gun and sampled the trans oil pan and the engine oil pan (because of convenience).

    A.J.

  6. #6
    Rhymes with tortoise. Turbo Mopar Staff cordes's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    There are a bunch of guys making a lot of HP with the OBX unit. I'm not aware of a failure yet...

  7. #7

    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    Quote Originally Posted by SebringLX View Post
    One thing I forgot in the OP... Transmission Cooler! Heat is the enemy on these, a transmission cooler helps out a ton. What are you guys using? I'm still using my stock transmission cooler. I changed the programming in my PCM to make the fans come on at a lower temp to help keep it cooler. It seems to be working out, but I may still add an after-market cooler.
    WTF?! You're still using the stock cooler? Are you kidding me?! I'm running an external cooler in my Duster, and I'm only running about 5-10% over stock power levels.

    Get a Flexalite cooler and install it AFTER the stock cooler. That way, the radiator will help heat up the fluid a bit in the winter time. In the summer time, the heat from the radiator will occur BEFORE the external cooler.

    Also, you should really be running a transmission temperature gauge. While the tranny is out of the car, drill and tap a hole for a temperature sender in the pan. Or, you could install a temperature sender in-line with the transmission cooler, placing it BEFORE both coolers to measure the actual fluid temperature. I did this on my daily-driven Ram.

    Also, make sure those mouth-breathers at the transmission shops are putting genuine Mopar ATF+4 in your transmission. Chrysler trannies don't like anything other than ATF+4. ATF+4 is fully synthetic and has high anti-foaming capacity. If your transmission didn't have Mopar ATF+4, it may have contributed to the failure.

    EDIT: If your gauge cluster doesn't have a "TRANS TEMP" light, your computer most likely doesn't know the actual transmission temperature. My Ram has a towing package and has the aforementioned idiot light.
    Vince 2011 Ford Mustang 5.0 I miss my Plymouth Duster. :(

  8. #8
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty_Duster View Post
    Also, make sure those mouth-breathers at the transmission shops are putting genuine Mopar ATF+4 in your transmission. Chrysler trannies don't like anything other than ATF+4. ATF+4 is fully synthetic and has high anti-foaming capacity. If your transmission didn't have Mopar ATF+4, it may have contributed to the failure.
    I dropped off a case of Mopar ATF+4 with the car for them to use, so I know it was the right fluid.

  9. #9
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    Ok, lets talk billet parts. Nobody makes them, I'd like to look into having some made. Several of the Neon guys that are using or wanting to use the 41TE are interested, as long as the price is right. I'm sure if I offered to the PT Cruiser guys they'd be interested too.

    Question is, what parts should I look into having made 1st? What parts should be billet steel, and what parts should be billet aluminum? Should billet parts be heat and/or cryo treated too?

    1st parts that come to mind, and I'm thinking billet steel on these, are the UD, OD, and 2-4 Hubs, since I broke them. Those shouldn't be too hard to get made because the stock parts can be copied.

    Next part I'm thinking of is the front planetary, which is more complicated. It's 3 pinion. I'd like to have a 5 pinion made, but I don't know how to go about this one.

    What other parts should I look into having billet replacements made for?

  10. #10
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty_Duster View Post
    WTF?! You're still using the stock cooler? Are you kidding me?! I'm running an external cooler in my Duster, and I'm only running about 5-10% over stock power levels.
    I agree, that's suicide, and did you put a filter inline like I keep telling you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SebringLX View Post
    Ok, lets talk billet parts. Nobody makes them, I'd like to look into having some made. Several of the Neon guys that are using or wanting to use the 41TE are interested, as long as the price is right. I'm sure if I offered to the PT Cruiser guys they'd be interested too.

    Question is, what parts should I look into having made 1st? What parts should be billet steel, and what parts should be billet aluminum? Should billet parts be heat and/or cryo treated too?

    1st parts that come to mind, and I'm thinking billet steel on these, are the UD, OD, and 2-4 Hubs, since I broke them. Those shouldn't be too hard to get made because the stock parts can be copied.

    Next part I'm thinking of is the front planetary, which is more complicated. It's 3 pinion. I'd like to have a 5 pinion made, but I don't know how to go about this one.

    What other parts should I look into having billet replacements made for?
    I have a machine shop friend who was going to build me new planetary's, won't be cheap and he might take awhile, I'll be seeing him tomorrow so I'll see what he has to say about making hard parts too.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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  11. #11
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    subscribed!

    Mike
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

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  12. #12
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    Ok, saw my friend today, he said making plantery's could cost alot, he doesn't have the machining to cut the helical gears but if want straight cut gears, no problem, no pricing yet. He is building a straight cut set for a 727, so that's good as we can see how noisey they are going to be.

    Now the good part, he said he can make any drum or basket, so post up exactly want you want made, I'll go borrow some hard parts and get prices.
    Last edited by turbovanmanČ; 08-07-2010 at 03:11 PM.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  13. #13
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    I dont think having straight cut gears on the 604 front planet would be TOO noisy since its all packed into that big drum which is packed into the transmission. Ive heard the noise planetaries make when they are literally falling apart and its still not really that loud.. lol.

    So where are the pictures of the broken 3 pinion front planets that you're trying to address?

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  14. #14
    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor zin's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    I am curious as to hard part failures... I don't seem to see/hear about too many, it mostly seems to come back to the controls and heat.

    Mike
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." - Patrick Henry

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  15. #15
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor A.J.'s Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Ok, saw my friend today, he said making plantery's could cost alot, he doesn't have the machining to cut the helical gears but if want straight cut gears, no problem, no pricing yet. He is building a straight cut set for a 727, so that's good as we can see how noisey they are going to be.

    Now the good part, he said he can make any drum or basket, so post up exactly want you want made, I'll go borrow some hard parts and get prices.
    Couldn't you use the helical gears out of a couple of disassembled trannies and have your friend just make the cage?

    A.J.

  16. #16
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    Couldn't you use the helical gears out of a couple of disassembled trannies and have your friend just make the cage?

    A.J.
    I guess that's an idea but the real problem is, the side loading of the helical gears, if they were straight cut, we would never have an issue.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  17. #17

    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    I agree, that's suicide, and did you put a filter inline like I keep telling you?
    Simon, what type of filter are you talking about? Are you referring to a remote-mount oil filter? Just put one of them inline with the trans cooler?
    Vince 2011 Ford Mustang 5.0 I miss my Plymouth Duster. :(

  18. #18
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty_Duster View Post
    Simon, what type of filter are you talking about? Are you referring to a remote-mount oil filter? Just put one of them inline with the trans cooler?
    An inline filter, Raybesto's makes them under the "Magnafine" name, they trap a crapload of dirt and also contain a magnet, they truly have saved my trans many a time.

    Like this-

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...&creative=9325
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  19. #19
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    They're basically just inline can filters that are roughly the same size and shape as some metal can fuel filters..

    IN FACT.. i wonder if you can use $10 fuel filters.. wouldnt have the magnet but i actually have fuel filters already sitting around..

    I had one 670 i built that i COULD NOT keep the stupid governor clean on.. i think there must have been junk in some of the case passages that i couldnt get out cuz there was no metal anywhere but the goveror would keep sticking..

    Anyway, got fed up with it and put TWO of those filters on it, and it NEVER stuck again..

    Dont push the red button.You hear me?

  20. #20
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: 41TE "Bullet Proofing"

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    They're basically just inline can filters that are roughly the same size and shape as some metal can fuel filters..

    IN FACT.. i wonder if you can use $10 fuel filters.. wouldnt have the magnet but i actually have fuel filters already sitting around..

    I had one 670 i built that i COULD NOT keep the stupid governor clean on.. i think there must have been junk in some of the case passages that i couldnt get out cuz there was no metal anywhere but the goveror would keep sticking..

    Anyway, got fed up with it and put TWO of those filters on it, and it NEVER stuck again..
    They could be, just not willing to risk it,

    See, they DO work,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

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