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Thread: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

  1. #21
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Water cooled center sections really don't make much of a difference when you do a hot shutdown. The water is not able to hold much heat energy. If you imagine the density of the metal vs the water, it still cokes the oil.
    Actually, the water cooled or "wet" bearing housings used on our mtrs are specifically for hot shut down. Their benifit while running is minimal, but when you shut down the mtr and all of that heat soaks up from the cast exhaust mani, that's where you need the wet housing.

    This is also why the housing was clocked at just the right angle, so that when the heat soaks and causes the coolant to boil it effectivly allows coolant to "flow" through the housing. It doesn't sit and stagnate like your thinking.

    This is also the reason you don't need a wet housing on a tube header, it doesn't heat soak on shut down the same as a cast mani.

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  2. #22
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    I agree with everyone else, Great write-up! This is one of the reasons I have always let my cars run longer than most (after a pass) and maintain clean oil and advise others to do the same! Hopefully more ppl will embrace the difference in maintaining a turbo car after reading and seeing this!

    Robert Mclellan
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  3. #23
    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Most vehicles do not have oil coolers to supplement cooling of the oil. That's why wet bearing turbos maintain a lower operating temperature due to the presence of the heat exchanger (radiator). The lower the turbo temperature is when the vehicle is shutdown, the less time it will take for it to reach ambient. By reducing the level of temperature and the time that the oil is exposed to high temperatures you reduce the amount of coking that occurs. The presence of a wet bearing housing does not relieve the driver from allowing the vehicle to cool down after spirited driving. Even a vehicle with low mileage will experience turbo failures if the vehicle is not properly maintained or driven.

    I attached a few photos of a low mileage PT Cruiser/SRT-4 turbo we received for rebuild. These TD04LR turbos are undersized for the application and tend to see rotational speeds in the 200,000 RPM range. The use of synthetic oil will greatly extend the life of your turbo but it is not the only ingredient in avoiding coking issues. While SRT-4 owners/enthusiasts usually avoid hot shutdowns, most PT Cruiser owners are not aware of the damaging effects caused by this kind of driving style and early turbo failures are the end result.

    Chris-TU
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    Chris Wright www.TurbosUnleashed.com Chris@TurbosUnleashed.com 602-76-BOOST Tech/Sales#: Monday-Saturday 9AM-7PM MST Proudly Serving the Turbo-Mopar Community since 1997 TU is a performance, not marketing company. We provide accurate performance data on all our performance products. Fabricating data to make us appear better is just not our style. Do the research before you buy. ROCK BOTTOM PRICES WITHOUT THE HIDDEN HANDLING FEES.... -----HOME OF THE 9 SECOND FWD T-M CLUTCH-----

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    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    I thought you had project cars to work on Vigo? You have time for a 3 hour photo session
    I do, but since im in summer semester and classes are 5 days a week, im pretty much constrained to being at home weekday evenings (ostensibly to work on homework assignments), since to get to the cars i would spend 2 hours driving to do 3 hours of work.

    Actually, i am in the process of converting this to a powerpoint and submitting it as a presentation assignment.. so i WAS working on my assignments while doing this.. sort of.

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  5. #25
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    Most vehicles do not have oil coolers to supplement cooling of the oil. That's why wet bearing turbos maintain a lower operating temperature due to the presence of the heat exchanger (radiator). The lower the turbo temperature is when the vehicle is shutdown, the less time it will take for it to reach ambient. By reducing the level of temperature and the time that the oil is exposed to high temperatures you reduce the amount of coking that occurs. The presence of a wet bearing housing does not relieve the driver from allowing the vehicle to cool down after spirited driving. Even a vehicle with low mileage will experience turbo failures if the vehicle is not properly maintained or driven.


    Chris-TU
    While this sounds reasonable and to some extent prob has some truth contained within it, it's not the reason Garrett/Chrysler designed the turbo center section that way.

    While the mtr is running there IS sufficient cooling from the oil alone, even on our mtrs with no oil cooler. It was "wet" for shut down specifically, because thousands of these mtrs were going to be sold to ppl who are prob not use to driving a turbo car and are going to shut it down Hot.

    Preventative maintenance.

    Robert Mclellan
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    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
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  6. #26
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    While this sounds reasonable and to some extent prob has some truth contained within it, it's not the reason Garrett/Chrysler designed the turbo center section that way.

    While the mtr is running there IS sufficient cooling from the oil alone, even on our mtrs with no oil cooler. It was "wet" for shut down specifically, because thousands of these mtrs were going to be sold to ppl who are prob not use to driving a turbo car and are going to shut it down Hot.

    Preventative maintenance.
    This is fair to a degree but we can't forget that "stock factory boost levels" don't stress the turbo/oiling system as much either. Sort of why I like to see an oil cooler installed once starting to really push a turbocharged engine passed stock levels. Cooler oil and increased capacity go a long way.

    Great write up Vigo.

  7. #27
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Boost levels dont have any effect on the heat the turbocharger center section sees other than how the boost affects your EGT. If you tune for the same EGT at a higher boost level, the turbocharger center section will run at about the same temperature. The added heat of compressing air on the compressor side is miniscule compared to the heat that conducts in from the exhaust side.

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  8. #28
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    Boost levels dont have any effect on the heat the turbocharger center section sees other than how the boost affects your EGT. If you tune for the same EGT at a higher boost level, the turbocharger center section will run at about the same temperature. The added heat of compressing air on the compressor side is miniscule compared to the heat that conducts in from the exhaust side.
    Indirectly, increased boost levels stress the entire engine ... that is what I meant. Oil temps increase as well as coolant temps. The demands on these systems effect the turbochargers life expectancy.

  9. #29
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Quote Originally Posted by puppet View Post
    This is fair to a degree but we can't forget that "stock factory boost levels" don't stress the turbo/oiling system as much either. Sort of why I like to see an oil cooler installed once starting to really push a turbocharged engine passed stock levels. Cooler oil and increased capacity go a long way.

    Great write up Vigo.
    I'm only talking about what Garrett/Chryslers original reasoning was for running the wet housing.

    Robert Mclellan
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    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
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  10. #30
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Quote Originally Posted by puppet View Post
    Indirectly, increased boost levels stress the entire engine ... that is what I meant. Oil temps increase as well as coolant temps. The demands on these systems effect the turbochargers life expectancy.
    I've never run an oil cooler. My Holset in Not "wet", only oil cooled. It's mounted on the same cast exhaust mani (- a decent amount of material) I don't expect to see any problems and I've run it as high as 39psi. Haven't seen a lick of difference in oil temp either.

    Like I said though, I let it cool down properly after every run.

    Robert Mclellan
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wambNdfnu5M
    10.04 @ 143.28mph (144.82 highest mph)
    Worlds fastest 8v MTX Shelby Charger
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  11. #31
    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    While this sounds reasonable and to some extent prob has some truth contained within it, it's not the reason Garrett/Chrysler designed the turbo center section that way.

    While the mtr is running there IS sufficient cooling from the oil alone, even on our mtrs with no oil cooler. It was "wet" for shut down specifically, because thousands of these mtrs were going to be sold to ppl who are prob not use to driving a turbo car and are going to shut it down Hot.

    Preventative maintenance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Their benifit while running is minimal
    Shadow- I agree with you 100% that a water cooled turbo will provide an extra level of protection when it comes to hot shut downs. I just think you are giving less credit to the affects of coolant flowing through the bearing housing while the engine is running.

    *The amount of oil that goes into the bearing cavity during normal operation is enough to seperate the full floating bearing from the turbine shaft and housing. The bearing cavity is not filled with oil, in fact, it is mostly air during normal ops. If it was full of oil then the turbo piston seals would leak all the time. Air does not tranfer heat as well as liquid does.

    *Coolant is usually at a lower temperature then oil due to the cooling effects of the radiator. It will transfer heat much better then oil will. The coolant passage of the bearing cavity is 100% full of coolant and flowing at a higher volume then the oil side during normal operation. This would indicate that it is removing more heat then the oil does.

    I think we are very close to agreeing here except for the amount of cooling that the different liquids provide while the engine is in operation. Water-Cooled Turbochargers are not a substitute for proper engine shutdown procedures. They reduce the time that is required to bring the temps down to a level where it is safe to shut off the vehicle.

    Chris-TU
    Chris Wright www.TurbosUnleashed.com Chris@TurbosUnleashed.com 602-76-BOOST Tech/Sales#: Monday-Saturday 9AM-7PM MST Proudly Serving the Turbo-Mopar Community since 1997 TU is a performance, not marketing company. We provide accurate performance data on all our performance products. Fabricating data to make us appear better is just not our style. Do the research before you buy. ROCK BOTTOM PRICES WITHOUT THE HIDDEN HANDLING FEES.... -----HOME OF THE 9 SECOND FWD T-M CLUTCH-----

  12. #32
    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    Shadow- I agree with you 100% that a water cooled turbo will provide an extra level of protection when it comes to hot shut downs. I just think you are giving less credit to the affects of coolant flowing through the bearing housing while the engine is running.

    *The amount of oil that goes into the bearing cavity during normal operation is enough to seperate the full floating bearing from the turbine shaft and housing. The bearing cavity is not filled with oil, in fact, it is mostly air during normal ops. If it was full of oil then the turbo piston seals would leak all the time. Air does not tranfer heat as well as liquid does.

    *Coolant is usually at a lower temperature then oil due to the cooling effects of the radiator. It will transfer heat much better then oil will. The coolant passage of the bearing cavity is 100% full of coolant and flowing at a higher volume then the oil side during normal operation. This would indicate that it is removing more heat then the oil does.

    I think we are very close to agreeing here except for the amount of cooling that the different liquids provide while the engine is in operation. Water-Cooled Turbochargers are not a substitute for proper engine shutdown procedures. They reduce the time that is required to bring the temps down to a level where it is safe to shut off the vehicle.

    Chris-TU
    I here what your saying Chris, and for years I would always run the Wet housing for those exact reasons. And I agree, there must be some benifits from the wet housing while running, but that's not what Garrett says about it.

    I got some interesting memos and technical sheets on the chrysler turbo's through a good friend of mine......years ago. This was how I knew exactly what an MP+ turbo was while most everyone else thought it was just an MP rebuild. (I had the build list that showed exactly what parts and part #'s were needed to build that turbo)

    One of those memos went into some detail about why the wet housings were used.

    This quote is from Andrew E. Johnston, Technical support Manager, Garrett heavy vehicle systems group.

    " The water cooling is intended for passenger car applications where the turbo is bolted to a heavy cast manifold with little air flow and many miles of stop and go service. The water cooling is not really necessary on a race car that isn't driven daily. Likewise, the water is not needed when the turbo is mounted on headers that do not store heat like a casting can. Remember that the water is only for cooling during shutdown, the oil cools the bearing when the engine is running. When the engine is shutdown the heat stored in the cast exhaust manifold "soaks back" into the turbo causing the water in the center housing to boil. When this happens it is important that the bubble that forms can escape upwards causing water to flow in from below and allowing the cycle to repeat itself. The upper hose should connect to the engine at a higher point than the lower water connection. The water flow direction while the engine is running is not important, it is when the engine stops that the boiling occurs."

    After reading this I had Zero concern about running an oil only turbo......

    Robert Mclellan
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  13. #33
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    so am I going to benefit with prolonged turbo life when I swap in my electric water pump with constant fan????

    theoratically i should be able to give it a warm shut down with minimal effects since I will have a constant flow of coolant until i turn off the pump/fan

    also I see u mention cast headers create lots of heat....since I have a SS TU header do I benefit more from a cast unit when it comes to heat dissapation to the turbo?

  14. #34
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Previously id already been convinced that the water connections were put there for the specific reason of acting as a heat sink on a hot shutdown. However, the actual movement of boiling coolant through the system is news to me.

    Thanks for the info and discourse!

    theoratically i should be able to give it a warm shut down with minimal effects since I will have a constant flow of coolant until i turn off the pump/fan
    Thats an interesting scenario. The way i see it, you should be able to shut the turbo down with no cooldown time whatsoever as long as you run the coolant for an additional minute or so. Thats pretty trick.

    also I see u mention cast headers create lots of heat....since I have a SS TU header do I benefit more from a cast unit when it comes to heat dissapation to the turbo?
    Its not that the manifold creates heat.. no manifolds create heat. What they do is store heat. Its about thermal mass. Depending on the material and how much of it there is, an object can store varying amounts of heat. Since our stock exhaust manifolds are thick walled, dense pieces of metal that have a small surface area compared to their mass, they will store a lot of heat from the exhaust gases and will mostly retain it while the engine is running instead of transferring much of it away to the surrounding air. Then, when the engine stops, the stored heat will be transferred away by conduction to the other things the manifold is touching that are lower temperature, in this case the cylinder head and the turbo.

    Im not specifically familiar with the part you're referencing but since you say SS i assume its a tube header, and since tube headers are thin-walled and have a lot of surface area, they'll hold less heat, and tend to shed it faster to the surrounding air and less quickly along the length of the thin pipes.

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggy View Post
    so am I going to benefit with prolonged turbo life when I swap in my electric water pump with constant fan????

    theoratically i should be able to give it a warm shut down with minimal effects since I will have a constant flow of coolant until i turn off the pump/fan

    also I see u mention cast headers create lots of heat....since I have a SS TU header do I benefit more from a cast unit when it comes to heat dissapation to the turbo?
    Although Chysler/Garrett clearly used this as a preventative measure against the masses that were about to comitt the highest ratio of hot-shutdown per turbo vehicle sold in the hystory of car sales, I would never use that as an excuse to shut the mtr off any sooner than I normally would.

    After all, it was ment as a "worse case scenario" Defcon 3 counter-measure.
    I don't think it was ever intended as a "go ahead and shut your turbo car down hot all you want and see what happens".

    Robert Mclellan
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  16. #36
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    awesome write up
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  17. #37
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    I just rebuilt my holset.

    Holsets will never have this problem. There are no return holes to clog. You could clog the feed holes or the bearings, but not the return. The returns are so large that this could never happen.

    My He341 had no coked oil. The bearings were perfect. Measured the same as the new ones. I have never run a coolant line on a turbo.

    I would echo the above that hot shut downs are stupid even with a coolant center section hooked up. If you stop the flow of oil when the center section and internals are hot enough to coke oil, it won't matter that you have 200 degree water in another location slowly cooling things.
    I am not much for idling to cool. I am all for driving reasonably hear home. Higher oil flow when cruising so you do yourself much more good then sitting and idling. Happier neighbors. No racing over their children and no annoying car idling outside.
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  18. #38
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    Re: Why turbos leak oil into the exhaust - With Pics!

    Yah, just taking the last mile easy sounds like a better plan, rather than idling, because if you've been driving that hard, your brakes are probably hot too, and your rotors might warp, so just driving it easy as you get near the destination sounds like a better overall plan.
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