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Thread: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

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    Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Question for those running 120+mph traps.

    I dont really understand the purpose of adding a 3.50 final to 3.77 gears.
    It ends up making your 4th gear very very lazy.

    What about running a 3.77 or 3.85 final drive in a 3.50 gearset?

    That takes a 7000 rpm 4th gear from 154mph (27" slicks, adding some growth to 26's..probably not enough added) to 140mph

    On 25" slicks (24.5 growing probably much taller then 25" though) 143mph becomes 130mph.

    With big slicks we have the problem of tire growth in 4th gear so a 4th gear that is lazy on a 24" tire becomes dead on a 26" slicks that is probably growing to 28" inches in all reality.

    Are people really so sure that gearing down for short track helps enough to be worth killing the top end? Are short gear gains even proven on the short track?
    Unless you are trying to extend 3rd gear so far that you never have to use 4th.

    The most I can see out of that is 139mph with a 26" slick growing to 28" (narrow rims) and 7500 rpms. So maybe for those reving to 8k there is room but......
    28" tire would be needed for most people looking to go faster (30" grown or more).
    I sorta doubt I can rev over 7000 safely and 28" slicks are out of the question so I would never be able to go faster then 130mph in 3rd on a low gear hybrid trans.

    With big slicks, I dont know if the hybrid trans would even help..maybe more of lag enducer.

    I would have to make 600whp to make a stock gears 3.77 trans useful in 4th gear on 26" slicks.

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Most run the hybrid to take advantage of the longer 1-2 (out of the hole) seeing the 1/4 is really all about your 60' and 330'. Also to try to stay on 24's (on an L-body anyways) because 26's are a bit of a squeeze + ppl start breaking stuff on 26's. (That's what I've heard) Loosing the more agressive 4th gear is just part of the give and take. In a perfect world (perfect traction) you would be correct and gear calculation would work, but traction is not always perfect. So a FWD that can trap 135mph with perfect gearing to come through the traps at the top of 4th ends up destroying the slicks through the first 2 gears.

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    [QUOTE=Ondonti;427764]Question for those running 120+mph traps.

    I dont really understand the purpose of adding a 3.50 final to 3.77 gears.
    It ends up making your 4th gear very very lazy.

    What about running a 3.77 or 3.85 final drive in a 3.50 gearset?





    You don't understand what you are saying. The gears ratios in the trans. can and do reamain the same. All that in effect happens is, the ring and pinion is changed to a lower set. Nothing different than changing the final drive in a rear wheel drive vehicle. There are not many different combos of trans gear ratios available. Whatever main shaft is chosen to use in the trans, determines what ratios must follow in the trans. But the final drive can be altered. What you said would put you right back where you started, unless a different gear set in the trans. was used.

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Quote Originally Posted by glhs875 View Post
    You don't understand what you are saying. The gears ratios in the trans. can and do reamain the same. All that in effect happens is, the ring and pinion is changed to a lower set. Nothing different than changing the final drive in a rear wheel drive vehicle. There are not many different combos of trans gear ratios available. Whatever main shaft is chosen to use in the trans, determines what ratios must follow in the trans. But the final drive can be altered. What you said would put you right back where you started, unless a different gear set in the trans. was used.

    Thats not correct.

    3.50 523/543 trans have higher gears then 3.77 trans.

    DODGE A-523 (90-91) 3.29 2.08 1.45 1.04 0.72 - 3.50
    DODGE A-523 (92) 3.31 2.06 1.36 0.97 0.71 - 3.77

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Most run the hybrid to take advantage of the longer 1-2 (out of the hole) seeing the 1/4 is really all about your 60' and 330'. Also to try to stay on 24's (on an L-body anyways) because 26's are a bit of a squeeze + ppl start breaking stuff on 26's. (That's what I've heard) Loosing the more agressive 4th gear is just part of the give and take. In a perfect world (perfect traction) you would be correct and gear calculation would work, but traction is not always perfect. So a FWD that can trap 135mph with perfect gearing to come through the traps at the top of 4th ends up destroying the slicks through the first 2 gears.
    I am looking into 26x10's
    Yeah...breaking parts though......
    Reeves is really the only one to find out so far. But his tranny was damaged before the failure.

    26x10's with 400whp, 500whp, 600whp. When will our stuff become useless? The honda guys constantly break with 26's and they have aftermarket pats installed!

    I am hoping I can hook up the AWD system and start learning about breaking AWD stuff instead of trannys with 26's.

    ONLY the early 568's have the 3.00 1st gear, so I think its a waste of time for most people. The only difference is 2nd gear and I dont want a bigger 1-2 gap.

    DODGE A-568 (90-91) 3.00 1.89 1.28 0.94 0.71 - 3.85
    DODGE A-568 (92) 3.31 1.89 1.28 0.94 0.71 - 3.85/3.77


    I would probably be happy with a
    3.00 1.89 1.36 0.97 .71 - 3.85 final drive.
    I think that would be the ultimate trans.

  6. #6
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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    24.5" tires, A555 3.85:1 is in the mid 6k's at 120mph in 4th, so if you dont plan to run any faster, then teh hybrid should not be needed except if you have severe traction issues out of the hole... then 26" tires or hybrid 3.50:1 or... both *eek*

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    Supporting Member II Turbo Mopar Contributor Shadow's Avatar
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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    The parts I was talking about breaking was mostly axels with the 26's, although I have yet to break one myself (knock on wood) Only been out on them the one time though.

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Thats not correct.

    3.50 523/543 trans have higher gears then 3.77 trans.

    DODGE A-523 (90-91) 3.29 2.08 1.45 1.04 0.72 - 3.50
    DODGE A-523 (92) 3.31 2.06 1.36 0.97 0.71 - 3.77



    Until this post you were not being very specific on the tranmission being used. So yes with the above there is a difference.

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    The parts I was talking about breaking was mostly axels with the 26's, although I have yet to break one myself (knock on wood) Only been out on them the one time though.
    you on 26x10 or 26x8.5?
    I have been real tempted by 26x10.

    Ive heard of srt-4's breaking pinion gears with them on the auto trans.

    I think the axles hold up great as long as we dont wheel hop or 1 wheel peel. Thats why people with 200hp break millions of axles and yet others with much more power have few problems........
    I had my differential improperly shim'd so it was sloppy. 1.7 60's and the only thing it did was twist the splines on the axle. Didnt even break. Saginaw.

    The honda guys are destroying DSS drag axles and aftermarket trannys with 26x10's.
    From what I have seen of their products I would never buy a DSS axle. Pretty sure L body guys could have someone else do their short axles too.

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    Basic Vendor (MSD, Hawk, etc) Turbo Mopar Contributor rbryant's Avatar
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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Thats not correct.

    3.50 523/543 trans have higher gears then 3.77 trans.

    DODGE A-523 (90-91) 3.29 2.08 1.45 1.04 0.72 - 3.50
    DODGE A-523 (92) 3.31 2.06 1.36 0.97 0.71 - 3.77
    Doesn't numerically higher mean lower gears.

    The 555/568 have the highest gears (of the ones that matter) followed by the 3.77 523, then the 3.50 523. Generally the low FD trannies have higher gears in order to even things out a little.

    The 3.77 523 gears are stronger and more evenly spaced than the 3.50 gears so that is also a concern. Of course you won't be using the crazy 5th gear that is really widely spaced from 4th gear on the 3.50 gears so you probably don't care.

    Remember you have to change the speed gears and the input shaft because the input shaft is a solid piece. Or conversely you can just change the ring and the main depending on which transmission you ultimately plan on running. This means you end up with the small input shaft in order to run the 3.50 gearset so you will probably also be looking for a different clutch...

    If you do swap to the 3.50 gears someone else might want the 3.77 gears and input shaft because they are stronger and also a nice option for highway driving.

    If I had a set of 3.50 gears laying around I would trade you and build a 3.77 geared 3.50FD tranny which is a nice hybrid IMO because it isn't geared so low and also is the strongest 523 combo.. I would have done one but I already have a 3.77 geared 568 with an OBX (slightly lower gearing than the 3.77gears on a 3.50FD).

    -Rich

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Quote Originally Posted by rbryant View Post
    Doesn't numerically higher mean lower gears.

    The 555/568 have the highest gears (of the ones that matter) followed by the 3.77 523, then the 3.50 523. Generally the low FD trannies have higher gears in order to even things out a little.

    The 3.77 523 gears are stronger and more evenly spaced than the 3.50 gears so that is also a concern. Of course you won't be using the crazy 5th gear that is really widely spaced from 4th gear on the 3.50 gears so you probably don't care.

    Remember you have to change the speed gears and the input shaft because the input shaft is a solid piece. Or conversely you can just change the ring and the main depending on which transmission you ultimately plan on running. This means you end up with the small input shaft in order to run the 3.50 gearset so you will probably also be looking for a different clutch...

    If you do swap to the 3.50 gears someone else might want the 3.77 gears and input shaft because they are stronger and also a nice option for highway driving.

    If I had a set of 3.50 gears laying around I would trade you and build a 3.77 geared 3.50FD tranny which is a nice hybrid IMO because it isn't geared so low and also is the strongest 523 combo.. I would have done one but I already have a 3.77 geared 568 with an OBX (slightly lower gearing than the 3.77gears on a 3.50FD).

    -Rich
    I dont think you have spent much time analyzing the gearing or how they relate to each other.

    The 3.77 has horrible gear ratios. have you ever looked at the 2-3 gap?
    The 3.50 has a perfect gap between each gear.
    the 568 also has a fairly large 2-3 gap.

    The difference between the .71 and .72 5th gear at 60mph is 1 mph

    I also dont think you understand that adding a 3.50 final to a 3.77 makes the 2-3 gap even worse.
    Ive never seen anyone validate the setup with results either.
    The only people who could possibly benefit are those with cars that trap 90-100mph because they wont need to shift to 4th.

    But building a custom trans for that slow of a car doesnt make sense to me. Especially since it wont really make a difference.

    I have multiple 3.5 and 3.77 gearsets. The only thing I would be interested in is a 3.00 568 1st gear from a pre 92 trans. Maybe 2nd gear too. The other gears are worthless.

    I am not just speculating here. Ive spend countless hours on Frank's Gearing excel sheet looking at tire combos and tranny combos. I love his spreadsheets.

    The higher/lower words I hate because they are used backwards.

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    I have multiple 3.5 and 3.77 gearsets. The only thing I would be interested in is a 3.00 568 1st gear from a pre 92 trans. Maybe 2nd gear too. The other gears are worthless.

    I am not just speculating here. Ive spend countless hours on Frank's Gearing excel sheet looking at tire combos and tranny combos. I love his spreadsheets.

    The higher/lower words I hate because they are used backwards.[/QUOTE]



    That would be nice if one could set up custom trans gear combos. If only the main shaft had removable gears on it as well!

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Ive never taken apart a trans besides doing shims on the input shaft and Diff and that pisses me off. Why does life have to be difficult?

    a568 has much better gearing then a 523 then.

    I havent seen anyone prove the 3.50 gears to be a weakness though. Building a trans with stronger gears when you would never break the weak ones seems sort of a waste of "stronger" parts to me.

    Do the 3.77 and 568 gears have less pitch on them? From seeing reeves case break, less pitch on a gear would be the one I pick. I dont care about how beefy the gear is cause I havent seen one fail in the later trans.

    I would rather have a 3.50 gearset with a 3.85 final drive until something was proven to be a weak link.

    If I was building a 4 cylinder, i would have it rev over 8000 rpms and then go with a 568 gearset with 3.50 final drive and only have to use 1st-3rd at the drag strip even if you are trapping 150+mph.
    Last edited by Ondonti; 01-20-2009 at 09:57 AM.

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    Ive never taken apart a trans besides doing shims on the input shaft and Diff and that pisses me off. Why does life have to be difficult?

    a568 has much better gearing then a 523 then.

    I havent seen anyone prove the 3.50 gears to be a weakness though. Building a trans with stronger gears when you would never break the weak ones seems sort of a waste of "stronger" parts to me.

    Do the 3.77 and 568 gears have less pitch on them? From seeing reeves case break, less pitch on a gear would be the one I pick. I dont care about how beefy the gear is cause I havent seen one fail in the later trans.

    I would rather have a 3.50 gearset with a 3.85 final drive until something was proven to be a weak link.

    If I was building a 4 cylinder, i would have it rev over 8000 rpms and then go with a 568 gearset with 3.50 final drive and only have to use 1st-3rd at the drag strip even if you are trapping 150+mph.



    The main input shaft does not have removable gears. The ratios are set in stone. A custom main shaft would have to be made!

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    you on 26x10 or 26x8.5?
    I have been real tempted by 26x10.

    Ive heard of srt-4's breaking pinion gears with them on the auto trans.

    I think the axles hold up great as long as we dont wheel hop or 1 wheel peel. Thats why people with 200hp break millions of axles and yet others with much more power have few problems........
    I had my differential improperly shim'd so it was sloppy. 1.7 60's and the only thing it did was twist the splines on the axle. Didnt even break. Saginaw.

    The honda guys are destroying DSS drag axles and aftermarket trannys with 26x10's.
    From what I have seen of their products I would never buy a DSS axle. Pretty sure L body guys could have someone else do their short axles too.
    If memory serves they are 26x9's. I totally agree with the wheel hop, I've been watching the local Honda's breaking everthing including stage 5 axels. That's 1 of the reasons I stuck with stockers, 1500.00 for a pair of axels that break? Damn. The Charger has Never hopped on me...not once! Launches smooth a glass! Prob the biggest reason I have never broke an axel. (I'm not including the solid u-joint I sheared in half cause I don't concider that as an axel)

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    [QUOTE=Ondonti;431751]

    a568 has much better gearing then a 523 then.




    Of all the different manual trans'. I have had, I like the 568 by far the best. There is no comparison in shift quality under power over a 555 or 525.

    Keep in mind, to get a good 60', a car needs to hit 45+mph within the 60' mark. So if geared to low in 1st, one may have to shift to second gear before the 60'mark.

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    Basic Vendor (MSD, Hawk, etc) Turbo Mopar Contributor rbryant's Avatar
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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti View Post
    I dont think you have spent much time analyzing the gearing or how they relate to each other.

    The 3.77 has horrible gear ratios. have you ever looked at the 2-3 gap?
    The 3.50 has a perfect gap between each gear.
    the 568 also has a fairly large 2-3 gap.

    The difference between the .71 and .72 5th gear at 60mph is 1 mph

    I also dont think you understand that adding a 3.50 final to a 3.77 makes the 2-3 gap even worse.
    Ive never seen anyone validate the setup with results either.
    The only people who could possibly benefit are those with cars that trap 90-100mph because they wont need to shift to 4th.

    But building a custom trans for that slow of a car doesnt make sense to me. Especially since it wont really make a difference.

    I have multiple 3.5 and 3.77 gearsets. The only thing I would be interested in is a 3.00 568 1st gear from a pre 92 trans. Maybe 2nd gear too. The other gears are worthless.

    I am not just speculating here. Ive spend countless hours on Frank's Gearing excel sheet looking at tire combos and tranny combos. I love his spreadsheets.

    The higher/lower words I hate because they are used backwards.
    I have spent considerable time on this. (a couple of years ago)

    The RPM drop is where you can see the real difference. Unless I am off my rocker the older gears had wider RPM drops than the newer ones. The 568 gearset is more narrow than the 3.50 and the 3.77 is also more narrow than the 3.50.

    Lots of articles say something to the effect of "the 555 got its gears back."

    Try this calculator: http://www.locost7.info/gearcalc.php I am pretty sure it is the one that gives you a full printout of your RPMs vs gears.

    The spacing between 4th and 5th is what makes it wide not just that one is .71 and one is .72.

    -Rich

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    ^credit for an entirely tone-neutral response.


    The main input shaft does not have removable gears. The ratios are set in stone. A custom main shaft would have to be made!
    i probably shouldnt speculate because i havent taken any of mine apart and looked at them, but i was over on the neon forums and saw a thread of a t350 rebuild where it was commonly thought that you couldnt break down one of the shafts, but the guy proved that wrong with a 20 ton press (apparently tried a 10tom and couldnt budge it) and successfully rebuilt it.

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    Basic Vendor (MSD, Hawk, etc) Turbo Mopar Contributor rbryant's Avatar
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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Here is the data for a 205/50/16 tire (24.86" diamater)


    520 and Older 523:

    Gear Mph per 1000 RPM Mph @6000 RPM Mph @6500 RPM
    --------------------------------------------------------
    1 6.42 39 42
    2 10.16 61 66
    3 14.57 87 95
    4 20.32 122 132
    5 29.35 176 191


    Gear Change RPM drop (change @6000) RPM drop (change @6500)
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    1 -> 2 -2207 (to 3793) -2391 (to 4109)
    2 -> 3 -1817 (to 4183) -1969 (to 4531)
    3 -> 4 -1697 (to 4303) -1838 (to 4662)
    4 -> 5 -1846 (to 4154) -2000 (to 4500)


    And here it is for the late 523:

    Gear Mph per 1000 RPM Mph @6000 RPM Mph @6500 RPM
    --------------------------------------------------------
    1 5.93 36 39
    2 9.52 57 62
    3 14.42 87 94
    4 20.22 121 131
    5 27.63 166 180



    Gear Change RPM drop (change @6000) RPM drop (change @6500)
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    1 -> 2 -2266 (to 3734) -2455 (to 4045)
    2 -> 3 -2039 (to 3961) -2209 (to 4291)
    3 -> 4 -1721 (to 4279) -1864 (to 4636)
    4 -> 5 -1608 (to 4392) -1742 (to 4758)


    And here it is for the 555 and Early 568

    Gear Mph per 1000 RPM Mph @6000 RPM Mph @6500 RPM
    --------------------------------------------------------
    1 6.40 38 42
    2 10.16 61 66
    3 15.01 90 98
    4 20.44 123 133
    5 27.06 162 176



    Gear Change RPM drop (change @6000) RPM drop (change @6500)
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    1 -> 2 -2220 (to 3780) -2405 (to 4095)
    2 -> 3 -1937 (to 4063) -2098 (to 4402)
    3 -> 4 -1594 (to 4406) -1727 (to 4773)
    4 -> 5 -1468 (to 4532) -1590 (to 4910)



    The 555/568 are the best. I guess the 5th gear is the one that is really way off on the early gearset. It doesn't really matter though since it won't ever be used. I guess I overshadow the early gearset in my mind with the fact that the 3.77 gears are stronger.

    On the highway the early gearset is a true overdrive where the difference between 4th and 5th is pretty big. Good for gas mileage but it leads to more shifting when passing.

    -Rich

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    Re: Higher Final drive Hybrid Trans

    Quote Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
    ^credit for an entirely tone-neutral response.




    i probably shouldnt speculate because i havent taken any of mine apart and looked at them, but i was over on the neon forums and saw a thread of a t350 rebuild where it was commonly thought that you couldnt break down one of the shafts, but the guy proved that wrong with a 20 ton press (apparently tried a 10tom and couldnt budge it) and successfully rebuilt it.


    The mainshaft is 1 piece of metal. If a gear was removed with a 20 ton press, it would be because something broke!

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