Lost 4th gear

[turbovanman²]

To lock out 4th, what would happen if you interrupted the speed sensor wire? Make it read 0, or would it just stay in 2nd?

It would go into limp mode.

[SebringLX]

Got asked for the go-ahead to take the trans back out... Still saying it's either a "hard part" or a clutch. If it's a "hard part", probably going to cost me $600 to replace. If it's a clutch... he'll cover it free of charge since those are what he just replaced. I asked if he used the Alto Red Eagle clutches 'cause I'm pretty sure those are what was in there before, but I was talking to the other guy, not the owner that actually does the build, so he wasn't sure.

I told him I wanted a call before they replaced anything. If it is the clutch, and I still think it is, I want to make sure he uses the Alto Red Eagle clutches in it. However I did notice that Raybestos makes "gen2 Blue Plate Special" clutches for the 41TE.

Here is the Alto Red Eagle info: http://www.altousa.com/friction.htm
Here is the Raybestos gen2 Blue Plate Special info: http://www.raybestospowertrain.com/rpt_prod_f_gen2.php

Does anyone have experience with either or know if one is better than the other?

[turbovanman²]

Go with the blue plate special,

[Vigo]

Based ONLY on how persuasively those pages are written and not on experience.. i like the blue plates better too

[turbovanman²]

Based ONLY on how persuasively those pages are written and not on experience.. i like the blue plates better too

Talked to my tranny guy today, he said they haven't had good luck with Alto's.

[SebringLX]

I'll ask mine about it when I call for an update on Monday.

[Speedeuphoria]

you should buy the rebuild kit parts from Steve Lockett in that thread on neons.org

and have this trans guy install it, I'm almost positive that what you just had was a stock rebuild and makes sense why it didnt last

[SebringLX]

you should buy the rebuild kit parts from Steve Lockett in that thread on neons.org

and have this trans guy install it, I'm almost positive that what you just had was a stock rebuild and makes sense why it didnt last

Yeah well that's going to piss me off if they did. I made it very clear that I did not have stock parts in the trans, and I did not want stock parts used. I talked to AJ, and gave this trans shop his number, told them to call him if they had questions on what to use for a replacement. I'm sure they never called him. They insisted that most everything was in there was stock, except for the "high energy" clutches.

It lasted less than 200 miles. :\ I'll be finding out more tomorrow.

[Vigo]

That's a bummer. From having been on the inside, i can tell you its hard as hell to actually get your money's worth out of a 'performance' build because since trans shops know that people dont know jack about whats inside transmissions, they know they cant easily get caught lying..

On the other hand, if you talk up how powerful your car is, they might give you a good build, but then give you a really bad warranty because now you've convinced them its going to break.

So its kind of a rough spot to be in to get a real performance build for a decent price and not end up with SOME part of the deal going crappy. Best of luck, though. Keep us updated!

[SebringLX]

High-res carnage pics here: http://www.custommopar.net/images/transmission

It looks like I broke everything from the Underdrive Hub to the Front Planetary.

Looking at this schematic here: https://www.wittrans.com/Schematic.a...04&Schematic=3

It's parts 570 through 582.

If I'm not mistaken, all those parts are in this kit here: http://www.transmissionpartssales.co...taryset-1.aspx ?

[shackwrrr]

High-res carnage pics here: http://www.custommopar.net/images/transmission

It looks like I broke everything from the Underdrive Hub to the Front Planetary.

Looking at this schematic here: https://www.wittrans.com/Schematic.a...04&Schematic=3

It's parts 570 through 582.

If I'm not mistaken, all those parts are in this kit here: http://www.transmissionpartssales.co...taryset-1.aspx ?

That link shows and says 4 pinion planetary. you dont want that if you broke a 5 pinion planetary.

[SebringLX]

That link shows and says 4 pinion planetary. you dont want that if you broke a 5 pinion planetary.

How can you tell the difference? I'm guessing you spotted a 5 pinion planetary in one of the pics of my trans?

[Vigo]

That picture shows a 5 pinion planetary, but thats the rear planetary and i dont think its broken.. i think you'd be able to re-use it. As far as i know, all the front planets are 3 pinion..

Oh and btw, consider me impressed! Good job breaking that stuff!

Your UD gear clutches must have been doing a good job.. they were holding some serious power to put those marks in the UD hub splines in such a short time and shear it off its shaft!!

[SebringLX]

That picture shows a 5 pinion planetary, but thats the rear planetary and i dont think its broken.. i think you'd be able to re-use it. As far as i know, all the front planets are 3 pinion..

Yeah it's only everything from the Underdrive hub up to the front planetary that seems to be broken.

Oh and btw, consider me impressed! Good job breaking that stuff!

Your UD gear clutches must have been doing a good job.. they were holding some serious power to put those marks in the UD hub splines in such a short time and shear it off its shaft!!

What would cause it to wear those marks in the splines all the way around? They were pretty deep.. You're saying it's the UD gear clutches that come in contact there? I didn't see any other part that had matching marks... I was thinking whatever was coming in contact with that there would have to show some signs of similar wear...

Would cryo treating help prevent this from happening again? As far as I know those are the original hard parts since nobody makes upgrades for the 96+ 41TE's. The upgrades available for these parts are for the 89-95, and the upgrade is to use the 96+ part from what I've seen. Cryo treating is the only thing I could think of that would maybe make it stronger.

[turbovanman²]

There is no WAY those wear marks happened on the clutch hub that fast, that takes time so the breakage stuff, shitt happens but that worn hub should have been replaced. That is caused by the clutch discs moving when turned on and off, bikes do it too.
Also looks like regular clutch discs.

[SebringLX]

There is no WAY those wear marks happened on the clutch hub that fast, that takes time so the breakage stuff, shitt happens but that worn hub should have been replaced. That is caused by the clutch discs moving when turned on and off, bikes do it too.
Also looks like regular clutch discs.

I agree, and so does AJ Berge (guy that built this trans for me 3 years ago). I called him and he said they should have caught it when they were doing the rebuild after the torque converter went out. He wants me to send him the whole "silver drum" and said it'd probably be $100-$500 to fix up depending on what can be re-used. I'm not sure what the "silver drum" is, I'm guessing the pat sitting next to the parts that I know are broken in pic # 536? It kind of looks like that goes over the top of those parts...

[BadAssPerformance]

Ouch! When you break 'em, you break 'em Josh! Hope its not too painful!

[Vigo]

I agree, and so does AJ Berge (guy that built this trans for me 3 years ago). I called him and he said they should have caught it when they were doing the rebuild after the torque converter went out. He wants me to send him the whole "silver drum" and said it'd probably be $100-$500 to fix up depending on what can be re-used. I'm not sure what the "silver drum" is, I'm guessing the pat sitting next to the parts that I know are broken in pic # 536? It kind of looks like that goes over the top of those parts...

Well, i was giving the benefit of the doubt but in retrospect its probably not deserved.. the previous builder probably DIDNT replace that piece, and that wear is the accumulation of the total miles since new.

Anyway, the silver drum is the entire input drum and everything that goes in it. Its on the left on this picture: http://www.custommopar.net/images/tr...n/SNC00535.jpg
And its more accurate to say that those parts go inside the drum, not that it goes over the parts. When you pull that drum out of the transmission most of that stuff is held into it by snaprings.

What would cause it to wear those marks in the splines all the way around?........ I was thinking whatever was coming in contact with that there would have to show some signs of similar wear...

The wear is pretty much normal over time and happens to all sorts of transmissions so its nothing special, but yours is at the point where it should be replaced for sure. What rides there is the inner teeth of a clutch plate.. sometimes they show similar amounts of wear, but sometimes they dont. You can see some clutch teeth clearly in this picture:
http://www.custommopar.net/images/tr...n/SNC00542.jpg

[SebringLX]

Well, i was giving the benefit of the doubt but in retrospect its probably not deserved.. the previous builder probably DIDNT replace that piece, and that wear is the accumulation of the total miles since new.

Yeah but still... 50k miles in 7 years, and only 3 years and 10k of those miles with the added power of the turbo...

Anyway, the silver drum is the entire input drum and everything that goes in it. Its on the left on this picture: http://www.custommopar.net/images/tr...n/SNC00535.jpg
And its more accurate to say that those parts go inside the drum, not that it goes over the parts. When you pull that drum out of the transmission most of that stuff is held into it by snaprings.

Cool that's what I thought.

The wear is pretty much normal over time and happens to all sorts of transmissions so its nothing special, but yours is at the point where it should be replaced for sure. What rides there is the inner teeth of a clutch plate.. sometimes they show similar amounts of wear, but sometimes they dont. You can see some clutch teeth clearly in this picture:
http://www.custommopar.net/images/tr...n/SNC00542.jpg

Well it kind of has to be replaced now. :P Since the clutches were replaced before this part broke, I could see why they do not have matching wear marks. I'm sure the old clutches may have.

[Reaper1]

WOW!! I agree with everybody else. That is wear that is "normal" over a long period of time. If the parts were NOT like that when it was built, then that says the clutches were too sloppy and banging into gear. The other thing I can think of is if the hub isn't hardened enough. What *could* happen is that the transmission could be in that gear and if the tires are slipping, then suddenly grab it will also cause a shock loading on those parts, however I'm not inclined to think that's what hapened here.

Chryo-treating *might* help, but I think that either a different surface hardening process or a different material is called for here. A coating might prolong that wear, but I doubt it would last an length of time. Nitride treating might help, or even chrome plating (I know it sounds strange, but it *might* work due to the properties of chrome).

It's expensive any way you do it. Going with a brand new part and trying again might prove to work fine. If it doesn't, we're back to square one and adding pages to this thread, that discuss a fix.