Cold Air intake for TU Stainless Steel header

[rbryant]

I think all Franzen was looking for was a solution. Instead he got a huge runaround, and perhaps some dodging. I still find it curious that Chris hasn't come up with a definitive post outlining the mysterious comp housing which will solve Kevin's problems. he touted it in many posts until Kevin posted up which housing he actually has.

That is fair.

Chris does need to post up the pictures. I talked to him today and he said that he had them and had the post almost ready to go but had a glitch in posting them and lost the post.

Now he is on the road to go to an event so he won't be able to post them until he returns. Unfortunately he did not have time to redo the post and submit it.

I can understand where he would want to get the post perfect and that it takes a long time to document everything accurately and without question given the sh!tstorm that this has become and I have lost long posts before aswell.

The lack of the pictures isn't a good thing, the delay sucks, and some might be skeptical but we will just have to wait and see.

-Rich

[badandy]

If the dimension in question is going toward the brake booster then it is something we can compare. It is possible to measure from point A to point B and infer a distance between point B and point C. It has to be done carefully but until we have an apples to apples comparison it might be the best we can do.

The thing is data is better than conjecture even if the data is hard to analyze or not perfect.

Very true! I cannot get any of the old information but I could get the new information. If Kevin got some measurements and I got some measurements than we could compare and have an answer. Unfortunately for Kevin he is in the middle of relocation and I am leaving for vacation on Saturday so that won't happen anytime soon.

In the beginning of this mess I did call Kevin and talk to him for quite a long time with things to try to help him out with fit after looking at his vid and pics...I wonder if Chris did that?

How much closer was it? If we know how much it moved things we can determine the real difference. This is the type of information we need.

Honestly I would guess about half an inch but that was last year in Reeves garage. I was stuck between a rock and a hard place swapping out the stainless header that nearly fell apart for a cast one....so I did a back to back swap. We really need comparison measurements to be sure.

It is fair to discuss common expectations from a business and what most businesses do. Sometimes that means that people disagree with common expectations but it does give a better picture as to whether or not Chris, Kevin, or neither are being reasonable or not.

True...let them work it out.

Why does he have to pull the head? A turbo change with that header is less than an hour because of its position. More time has been spent by everyone talking about it than what it would take...

I don't know I was just saying I know what I would do...which is to pull that thing off and make sure it was flat, etc...because mine warped twice and had to be flattened twice...as well as fully welded at every weld el. I'm sure he could hokie the job if he wanted to but I'll let him answer that question.

If the manifold were new and Kevin immediately had a problem with it fitting I am pretty sure that Chris would have taken it back. I suppose you are correct in that I don't know this for sure. Perhaps someone has an example dealing with Chris what could prove or disprove this notion.

I do have an example, but this isn't about my experiences. I would be glad to share it with you in private if you wish.

There is a big difference between an unused product after 90 days and a used product after 4 years so no I don't think it is "rich" at all.

The point is that after 30 days you will have a hard time getting anyone to take things back. I think that new products should always be taken back as long as they are stocked by the vendor and can be resold.

That brings in another issue for a vendor... Should they take back a product in used condition that they no longer even sell? I don't think that is a reasonable thing.

Before I get beaten up over this consider how improving products could hurt a vendor if they take back the old ones... If some vendor makes something that people are happy with and then they improve it people can't be allowed to return the old one and buy the newer better one or it could put them out of business! That is just the way things work. Sometimes it sucks...

Used products and modified products are NEVER taken back by anyone unless there is an explicit warranty... In this case it was something that was happily used for 4 years...

I would surely be annoyed that I had a fitment problem with the manifold and turbo so I do feel for Kevin.

The problem is that it was used for a long time, worked fine when used until a change was made.

What should he really expect Chris to do about it?

-Rich

I was more trying to illustrate the point that imagine how Kevin feels...that's all!...that is what this whole thread was about right?...the fact the Kevin was disappointed that his Stainless TU header did not fit well in the car that it was claimed it would fit?....with the same type of turbo that is stated will work!

I think refunding the part is a stretch and I don't believe that is the expectation (not sure). Just help the guy make the parts that were claimed worked together (originally when the header was first marketed) ...work....that's all! The rest of this mess is so far off track it's pathetic.

If it were me I'd yank that POS off and sell it...which is what I did with mine...and I also did something that TU wouldn't do for me! I guaranteed it! If it messed up I'll refund the purchasers money 100%

Yup...I know, I would make a sucky businessman...but MY customer (GUY15) is happy

[cordes]

That is fair.

Chris does need to post up the pictures. I talked to him today and he said that he had them and had the post almost ready to go but had a glitch in posting them and lost the post.

Now he is on the road to go to an event so he won't be able to post them until he returns. Unfortunately he did not have time to redo the post and submit it.

I can understand where he would want to get the post perfect and that it takes a long time to document everything accurately and without question given the sh!tstorm that this has become and I have lost long posts before aswell.

The lack of the pictures isn't a good thing, the delay sucks, and some might be skeptical but we will just have to wait and see.

-Rich

To be honest I don't care how many irons he has in the fire, this one has been red hot for too long and it's further delay is one for the books.

No less than 3 people have implied that he's being shady when it comes to these pictures. The longer he waits the worse it looks.

To be honest, it will take a long time to make that post perfect. Lord knows it will have to be perfect after Kevin posted up Chris's own photos which appear to be the same housing he already has. Very curious thing.

[DodgeZ]

Rich, when did I say I wanted a refund? Your lack of reading through this thread is disgusting to say the least. I think maybe you are taking what you heard on your phone call with Chris as the truth instead reading the facts that have been posted. If you want to speak for Chris at least get your facts straight.

[rbryant]

what turbo? pics??

Brian

Sorry I missed this post in all of the clutter here...

It was the same CSX that Chris already pictured with the red silicone 90 on the CAI. I can verify that those pictures accurately depict the car and the clearances.

I am not a turbo identification expert but it was a ball bearing turbo from TU.

I would have taken more pictures but I didn't want to get that involved other than to comment that I saw it and it fit. I did say in a later post that it is a cast header so there will be some variance. I think it would have been tight if moved to the driver side by 1/2" but I think it would fit with a little elbow trimming and no elbow contact with the booster.

-Rich

[rbryant]

Rich, when did I say I wanted a refund? Your lack of reading through this thread is disgusting to say the least. I think maybe you are taking what you heard on your phone call with Chris as the truth instead reading the facts that have been posted. If you want to speak for Chris at least get your facts straight.

I am not speaking on his behalf.

I didn't read through the thread after about page 3. In some cases it is better to just reset and get the information straight without reading a bunch of bickering about unproven things.

I was simply saying that I have seen it work on a shadow. If the housing on that shadow was 1/2" farther to the driver side it still would have worked.

I was hoping that not reading it would actually help solve the issue. I believe I said that Chris should provide pictures and it the onus was on him to do so. I called him today to ask specifically how much farther he felt the welded header could stick out from the cast header. That was the conversation.

The refund discussion came into the realm of "well what do you want vendors to do in this case anyway category."

He says he has a cover that will work so I agree he needs to show pictures of it or provide it.

The problem is even if it can't work what is he supposed to do at this point? It is a 4 year old used product.

Neither a refund or replacement are really reasonable.

I would be frustrated too.

-Rich

[rbryant]

I am starting to think that the variance on your particular header was larger than the 1/2" farther than the cast iron header that has been stated in the thread.


Lets get some real measurements that can be compared:


On the car:

How far it is from the two driver side turbo flange bolt holes to the brake booster? Those should be fairly reliable measurements.

On the head/header:

How far is it from the edge of the head to the same turbo flange holes?
How far is it from the back side of the head to the same turbo flange holes (backwards toward the firewall)

That way we actually have real information about the placement of your turbo. It might be that it is both farther to the driver side and farther back than we think making the fitment a real issue.

The engineer in me says that we need to get some real reliable measurements that we can compare and only then can we tell what is going on.


Then basically if it won't work due to those measurements Chris should say that you are right and it won't fit.

The options then suck a bit for you but it seems that they are probably:

1) Sell the damn thing to someone that doesn't have a shadow.
2) Change the brake booster to the thin one (not sure if you would want to)



I think when it comes down to it if it doesn't fit the most you can really expect considering that it was used on your other car for quite some time is for Chris to say:

"Sh!t well I guess that particular header won't fit the Shadow with the big brake booster."

Getting a solution to make your header work is the first important thing if it is at all possible. But if not I think it just sucks and there isn't much anyone can do to fix it.

-Rich

[Frank]

I am starting to think that the variance on your particular header was larger than the 1/2" farther than the cast iron header that has been stated in the thread.


Lets get some real measurements that can be compared:


On the car:

How far it is from the two driver side turbo flange bolt holes to the brake booster? Those should be fairly reliable measurements.

On the head/header:

How far is it from the edge of the head to the same turbo flange holes?
How far is it from the back side of the head to the same turbo flange holes (backwards toward the firewall)

That way we actually have real information about the placement of your turbo. It might be that it is both farther to the driver side and farther back than we think making the fitment a real issue.

The engineer in me says that we need to get some real reliable measurements that we can compare and only then can we tell what is going on.


Then basically if it won't work due to those measurements Chris should say that you are right and it won't fit.

The options then suck a bit for you but it seems that they are probably:

1) Sell the damn thing to someone that doesn't have a shadow.
2) Change the brake booster to the thin one (not sure if you would want to)



I think when it comes down to it if it doesn't fit the most you can really expect considering that it was used on your other car for quite some time is for Chris to say:

"Sh!t well I guess that particular header won't fit the Shadow with the big brake booster."

Getting a solution to make your header work is the first important thing if it is at all possible. But if not I think it just sucks and there isn't much anyone can do to fix it.

-Rich

Don't forget to measure the differences as a result of the center section....

[DodgeZ]

I am not speaking on his behalf.

I didn't read through the thread after about page 3. In some cases it is better to just reset and get the information straight without reading a bunch of bickering about unproven things.

This isn't one of those cases. A lot of time and effort has gone in to posting factual data. Pretty much all of your questions have already been answered.

I was simply saying that I have seen it work on a shadow. If the housing on that shadow was 1/2" farther to the driver side it still would have worked.

Had you read the thread before posting.... You'd know that the BB center section is a lot shorter. Also posting what "you have seen work" with out any details on what the turbo is... well it isn't useful information. Any engineer should know that.

I was hoping that not reading it would actually help solve the issue.

I am going to have to sig that one. I needed some LOL this morning, thanks.

The refund discussion came into the realm of "well what do you want vendors to do in this case anyway category."

Engineers don't assume.

The problem is even if it can't work what is he supposed to do at this point? It is a 4 year old used product.

Neither a refund or replacement are really reasonable.

I always get screw because of time. I have too many cars and parts normally sitting around go bad. Or I don't find problems until years later. I'll add this stainless steal header to the parts that go bad after sitting around. Shame since it has less then 3000 miles on it....

[DodgeZ]

I am starting to think that the variance on your particular header was larger than the 1/2" farther than the cast iron header that has been stated in the thread.


Lets get some real measurements that can be compared:


On the car:

How far it is from the two driver side turbo flange bolt holes to the brake booster? Those should be fairly reliable measurements.

On the head/header:

How far is it from the edge of the head to the same turbo flange holes?
How far is it from the back side of the head to the same turbo flange holes (backwards toward the firewall)

That way we actually have real information about the placement of your turbo. It might be that it is both farther to the driver side and farther back than we think making the fitment a real issue.

The engineer in me says that we need to get some real reliable measurements that we can compare and only then can we tell what is going on.


Then basically if it won't work due to those measurements Chris should say that you are right and it won't fit.

The options then suck a bit for you but it seems that they are probably:

1) Sell the damn thing to someone that doesn't have a shadow.
2) Change the brake booster to the thin one (not sure if you would want to)



I think when it comes down to it if it doesn't fit the most you can really expect considering that it was used on your other car for quite some time is for Chris to say:

"Sh!t well I guess that particular header won't fit the Shadow with the big brake booster."

Getting a solution to make your header work is the first important thing if it is at all possible. But if not I think it just sucks and there isn't much anyone can do to fix it.

-Rich

I agree on taking these measurement. I'll have a cast header at my shop soon and I can do some side by side measurement. Should be back home Sunday or Monday night.

[Juggy]

My cast header is closer to the booster than my stainless header was. Like I said before we are talking about a stainless header in this scenario...not the cast one...so cast dimensions really mean very little to Kevin's situation.

[/QUOTE]

i mentioned in the thread that the cast one sticks out further. and chris replied it was the other way around and that purchasing the cast header would actually make more room then the SS model and solve kevins problem?

strange it'd when it sticks out further.....ive had them sitting side by side. wish i had taken a picture.

maybe someone should anti up and just send out a compressor housing to kevin rather then him send his complete turbo away for no inparticular reason when the only item in question happens to be the comp housing. but why do i have this feeling he is going to get another housing, like the one he already has

[Force Fed Mopar]

Rich, I think after Kevin paying 500+ for this prototype header, he should get some measure of help

Not sure why everyone makes a big deal of the turbo being easier to to change or being able to remove the turbo w/o pulling the head using the header. I can swap turbos on my Daytona in under 2 hours, start to finish, w/ a stock exhaust manifold, w/o pulling the head. Have done so twice in my GLHS too. The main issue you usually run into when trying to do this w/ stock/original components is that the coolant line is tough to get broke loose at the turbo. People running the header always use the stainless line kit, which isn't 25 years old and rusty/stuck/whatever.

Also just for the record, the turbo on Bozo's Lebaron (pics posted of his turbo and cast header couple pages back) is NOT what I consider a true T3/T4 turbo. It is a T4 wheel inside a stock size T3 housing. And the tight custom made 90-degree pipe for the CAI barely clears the booster in his '89 Lebaron GTC that has factory 11" discs all round.

IMO, I think Chris should provide a small booster to Kevin, if that indeed clears the intake path. Wouldn't cost him much out of pocket, and would make everyone involved feel a lot better about TU I think. Kevin bought the header to help support him in the first place, as well as some other stuff. In fact, Kevin was buying parts from him even after finding out that the turbo/header setup didn't work properly in the CSX. It was only when he started to get the run-around that he really got pissed off about this.

Kevin, I got the head pulled off Bozo's car last night and manifolds stripped off, so just give me a call when you get in, I'll bring it over to compare. Does this mean we are pulling the head off the CSX this week?

[ScottD]

I'm curious as to what the ultimate solution ends up being. It seems like some people with P-bodies have made this work. What is different about Kevin's car that is making this a problem? A lot of variables have been discussed (axles, smaller brake booster, production differences in the header itself, compressor housing) but the solution is there somewhere. It stinks to put something on that you think is going to work only to have to do some customizing/fabrication but sometimes that's the way of things with aftermarket parts.

[Juggy]

'87 CSX T04E Cover with TU Header. Large brake booster. TU 90 degree silicone elbow.
Cell phone camera pictures. Bettr ones are coming.

Chris-TU

got an actual pic of the TU header on the car??? i dont see anything that can resemble it at all. the turbo placement seems a little shady from the pics

what size 90 is that btw?? i see it swells down @ the compressor

Location of the turbo confirms that it's our header. Shady?? Are you suggesting that I doctored the pics? If you look close in th lower right photo #86 I believe you can see our oil return deviation tube.

3" 90 from our stock here:

http://turbosunleashed.com/shop/prod...fd25478986a909


Chris-TU

Sorry I missed this post in all of the clutter here...

It was the same CSX that Chris already pictured with the red silicone 90 on the CAI. I can verify that those pictures accurately depict the car and the clearances.

I am not a turbo identification expert but it was a ball bearing turbo from TU.

I would have taken more pictures but I didn't want to get that involved other than to comment that I saw it and it fit. I did say in a later post that it is a cast header so there will be some variance. I think it would have been tight if moved to the driver side by 1/2" but I think it would fit with a little elbow trimming and no elbow contact with the booster.

-Rich

ball bearing. so that explains why that turbo happen to fit w/CAI. the center sections are way smaller, prolly give you an extra 1" of clearance to make room for a CAI...

so I can say the pictures were not shady since rich confirmed this. but now they have NOTHING to do with this thread and do not prove any justice for the header since the turbo is not journal bearing.

maybe it seems that everyone is on the DBB bug...so could be a possibility why chris hasnt heard of problems. that or the ones that have are just running an open turbo and did not bother to care to complain (like a friend of mine....)

[DodgeZ]

I'm curious as to what the ultimate solution ends up being. It seems like some people with P-bodies have made this work. What is different about Kevin's car that is making this a problem? A lot of variables have been discussed (axles, smaller brake booster, production differences in the header itself, compressor housing) but the solution is there somewhere. It stinks to put something on that you think is going to work only to have to do some customizing/fabrication but sometimes that's the way of things with aftermarket parts.

I think it comes down to having a standard bearing turbo with a T04E housing. If I had a B housing or a stock housing I think it would clear. If I had a ball bearing turbo don't think it would be a problem either.

I like to see someone else with at standard bearing TU trannybuster T04E turbo used with his header (cast or SS in any car with a big booster).

[DodgeZ]

Does this mean we are pulling the head off the CSX this week?

I doubt it. I have to get ready for the big move. That means finishing up that SRT4 so I can sell it. If I take the head off the CSX that header isn't going back on. Did you see if that parts car had the small booster on it?

[Austrian Dodge]

what don't you understand about it being the same housing, it wouldn't fit even if I got it from chris. You are still hung up on this. TU said this header fits T04E turbos. It isn't some odd ball turbo housing custom made for Mac dump truck. It is a standard housing, the same one Chris sells and says will work!

i understand what you're saying, but it seems you're blindfolded to see that for a warranty case it doesn't matter if it's the same, only thing that matters is: did you follow the recommendations?
-> no you didn't, you didn't buy a TU turbo
and 4 years later there's no such thing called warranty anymore.
anyone company who's willing to help in such cases, is doing it because of their good-will.

TU's offer that you send your comp. housing or turbo in, and they provide you with the cover that will fit is one possible solution.
another one may be said short brake booster.

how about I put like this. I buy a 9mm Glock (hope you know where Glocks are made) handgun. It won't fire any 9mm ammo. Who do I call? Do I call the ammo companies?

You call Steyr Austria after years of successfully shooting the gun, than you switch to another 9mm ammo, or - let's say - replace some other part of the gun (not recommended from Steyr unless you buy it directly from them).

do you want me to translate their statement in english?

[DodgeZ]

i understand what you're saying, but it seems you're blindfolded to see that for a warranty case it doesn't matter if it's the same, only thing that matters is: did you follow the recommendations?

Chris stated the turbo needed to be sized correctly, in this thread... I did so, it is sized exactly to what he says works...

-> no you didn't, you didn't buy a TU turbo
and 4 years later there's no such thing called warranty anymore.
anyone company who's willing to help in such cases, is doing it because of their good-will.

Did I ask about a warranty? Nope.

TU's offer that you send your comp. housing or turbo in, and they provide you with the cover that will fit is one possible solution.
another one may be said short brake booster.

Did you miss my reason for not trusting Chris?

You call Steyr Austria after years of successfully shooting the gun, than you switch to another 9mm ammo, or - let's say - replace some other part of the gun (not recommended from Steyr unless you buy it directly from them).

do you want me to translate their statement in english?

Do you think that I have the same housing that Chris sold/sells on his trannybuster T04E turbo?

[Juggy]

i understand what you're saying, but it seems you're blindfolded to see that for a warranty case it doesn't matter if it's the same, only thing that matters is: did you follow the recommendations?
-> no you didn't, you didn't buy a TU turbo
and 4 years later there's no such thing called warranty anymore.
anyone company who's willing to help in such cases, is doing it because of their good-will.

since you know so much about TU turbos.....can I really ask what makes it a "TU" turbo???

are they modified after they get into the vendors hands???

[Austrian Dodge]

Chris stated the turbo needed to be sized correctly, in this thread... I did so, it is sized exactly to what he says works...

he pointed out that you might have a B housing not an E housing and asked for measurements (so did rich just today) -> this thread is still missing them, but thats an information that might really help solve your issue.
get a tape measure and a camera and start providing numbers, that's the only thing that will help people solving your problem.

yes, he stated it'll work with the correct turbo -> a TU trannybuster turbo.
do you have that? no, you have a TU .63 hot side, unknown brand centersection and unknown brand compressor housing.

Did I ask about a warranty? Nope.

you've asked for help, got pissed off when it was mentioned that you didn't follow the recommendations, and expect TU to solve your problem.
correct, you're not asking for warranty, you're asking a company to go beyond every regular business manners (used product, 4 years later, didn't follow recommendations).

Did you miss my reason for not trusting Chris?

your sending a compressor cover and get the one that'll fit.
whats your concern? not getting a $50 used part back?
1) you still have 3 them anyways
2) you'd be the first to shout out loud that chris stole your compressor cover
3) if it doesn't fit, you'd be the first to post that header still doesn't fit and chris sent you the wrong compressor cover.

again, whats your concern?

Do you think that I have the same housing that Chris sold/sells on his trannybuster T04E turbo?

no, unless i have seen pics with a tape measure of your housing and another one of TU's, i don't think you have the same. not to mention you got it from an unknown source.

telling something and providing evidence are two different things.

it sure sucks to be in your situation, but you need to face it was your choice of parts that diverse from the description, so it is in fact your probem not anyone else's.

since you know so much about TU turbos.....can I really ask what makes it a "TU" turbo???

are they modified after they get into the vendors hands???

i never said i know exactly what makes a TU turbo.
i don't know what they did to their t3/t4 turbos....like i posted before, it may be some kind of super special housing and thats why they fit.
you don't know, and neither do i.
the point is, it's their recommendation and if you follow them the header fits.

now if you followed TU's recommendet combo (TU header, TU turbo, TU whatever)and it doesn't fit - whole different story, because then you've followed the vendors instructions and it's still not working.
but in kevin's case the problem is his turbo, which he didn't get from TU.
we still don't know any specs of it either, other than him telling us it's a T3/T4E and we know there's lots of different T3/T4 turbo's.