Front end rebuild advice **needed**

[LaserXT1986]

Hey all,

Need advice from the collective (this is long, just a warning). Car in question is a stock 86 Laser XT.

My situation is that I currently have 4 bald tires, and a car needing an alignment. I have brand new Koni/Eibach's installed. I have 4 brand new tires mounted on separate wheels , ready to go, but don't want them to wear pre-maturely. The reason I haven't gotten an alignment is because I want to upgrade the crappy 86 K frame/arms to the later years, and only want to pay for the alignment once. Here's my problem:

On one hand (we'll call it Option A), I have a k-frame from the 91 up cast design. It's already cleaned, re-painted, brand new A-arm bushings and brand new sway bar bushings, brand new balljoints, new steering rack, and new tie-rods. But, I don't have the 91-up knuckles. As it's been known, this causes the front wheels to "push forward", thus, cause rubbing.

On the other hand (Option B), I have an 89 k-frame from a Shelby Daytona, with everything -- knuckles, larger brakes, sway bar, etc. Yes, I realize the knuckles are not needed but they were part of the package. Problem is, I have to clean all the crap off, re-paint it, then get the old factory bushings out, put new bushings in, new sway bar bushings, etc., etc.

My questions about Option A (91-up K frame) are as follows:

1.) Can I simply swap in the 91-up knuckles and assume that this will keep the wheels in the stock location (i.e., avoid the rubbing problem)?

2.) This has been sitting outside, on a project car, for the last 6 years. The bushings were MOOG brand (the blue ones). Does anyone think sitting outside with the weight of the car on everything, has made these "less desirable" in terms of performance?

3.) The steering rack -- this too has been sitting outside on the project car, for the last 6 years. The lines were never installed (no fluid). Any chance those seals are shot from sitting? It had a lifetime guarantee but Autozone is now showing that they no longer carry it....

Or, should I just go with Option B -- the 89 K-Frame setup, and redo everything (clean, paint, bushings, etc.) from scratch.

What would you do in my situation to spend the least amount of money and get the best results? (Yes I realize Poly Bushings is a better choice for the 91-up option, but I ain't swapping the bushings out since they are brand new).

[GLHNSLHT2]

I'd go with option B and save 5 lbs of weight per side vs the 91+ setup. Also you can get poly bushings from Energy suspension for the 89/90 arms. You can also use your stock sway bar and upgrade to the large front bar later on as they're the same shape from 84-90 if you don't already have a larger bar.

[turbovanman²]

I would go option B, the Moog 91+ bushings are garbage, PB redesigned them. I wouldn't use the rack if it hasn't any fluid in it, its probably dried out and will give you problems plus you need to find 91+ knuckles.

[badandy]

If I understand correctly, the placement of the wheel in the wheel well is due to the cast arms NOT due to the knuckles. In other words...even if you had the knuckles your wheels still will have quite a bit of Caster and will not be centered.

I plan on using newer knuckles on 89 stamped control arms/k-frame setup to get the roll center advantage...and according to what I've seen and others have done...this will not change my caster.

So...to sum it up...if the newer knuckles brought your wheel back to center when using the newer cast arms than that would mean they create negative caster...which doesn't happen when using them with stamped arms.

Hope that all made sense.

[GLHNSLHT2]

good thing those coil-over saved you some semi-sprung weight. The later 11" spindles are 3lbs heavier than the 89/90 11's

[badandy]

good thing those coil-over saved you some semi-sprung weight. The later 11" spindles are 3lbs heavier than the 89/90 11's

I've thought about those too but I have to find the parts either way.

[black86glhs]

I would go with the 89 setup even though you need to clean it up first. It is all there, no need to find anything. Sell the 91+ stuff to help make you feel better.

[butchsuppe]

I went with option B with no regrets on my Laser XT.

[LaserXT1986]

Wow, I always thought the 91-up was the most desirable to have? Seems like now it's the 89 stamped to be the choice of professional, so to speak

Did the 91 have any advantage? I'm just wondering why I went that route back in 2003 when I was working on my other project, and can't recall why I would have went that way versus stamped....

[contraption22]

Wow, I always thought the 91-up was the most desirable to have? Seems like now it's the 89 stamped to be the choice of professional, so to speak

Did the 91 have any advantage? I'm just wondering why I went that route back in 2003 when I was working on my other project, and can't recall why I would have went that way versus stamped....

I think it comes from a few assumptions. Like everbody thought that because they were different on the later cars, they must be better. I think people also think that the forged control arms are stronger. Which could be true, but it's not like we see alot of control arm failures.

BTW... my 93 Acclaim has the forged arms and is all stock. And the wheels sit way forward in the wheel wells.

[badandy]

Wow, I always thought the 91-up was the most desirable to have? Seems like now it's the 89 stamped to be the choice of professional, so to speak

Did the 91 have any advantage? I'm just wondering why I went that route back in 2003 when I was working on my other project, and can't recall why I would have went that way versus stamped....

The cast setup would still be the better handling of the two (stock for stock) with more rigid control arms, more caster, and improved roll center. The stamped setup gets you the stamped arms which are lighter and no change in Caster which then you can do with camber plates and keep your wheel in the center of the wheel well...and then you can use the later model knuckles to get the better roll center and 11" brakes

...at least...that's my plan

[x.Gen]

I went with option B with no regrets on my Laser XT.

+1, same on my XT.

had the option, exactly the same as you - did as much reading as I could (this was a long time ago, there wasn't as much info out there), and there was too much guessing whether it would fit right on the first gen. if you break it down, without the spindles it will move the wheels forward, period. not gonna revive the arguments about suspension geometry, but look at it this way - would you rather waste time detailing the setup that you know fits, or doing a test install to find out whether it rubs your fascia/fenders? a test fit is no different than a full install in that case.

even with the 89 set-up, there isn't much room. if I remember, maybe two fingers laterally at the front, a couple of inches. I'm running 225/45/17's now, and I'm glad I went with the stamped (still no rubbing). besides - the dual pivot will improve handling greatly, beyond that you won't know the difference.

course, you could always sell me that 89 setup, if you want to do it the hard way! good luck with it.

[rbryant]

If I understand correctly, the placement of the wheel in the wheel well is due to the cast arms NOT due to the knuckles. In other words...even if you had the knuckles your wheels still will have quite a bit of Caster and will not be centered.

I plan on using newer knuckles on 89 stamped control arms/k-frame setup to get the roll center advantage...and according to what I've seen and others have done...this will not change my caster.

So...to sum it up...if the newer knuckles brought your wheel back to center when using the newer cast arms than that would mean they create negative caster...which doesn't happen when using them with stamped arms.

Hope that all made sense.

+1

There is no "requirement" for the knuckles to be upgraded to match the kframe/arms. We thought it was a requirement in the past for various reasons but those reasons have been shown to be false.

The newer ones are probably better but they aren't required.

Simon, It just completely stuns me that you keep posting this.

-Rich

[rbryant]

good thing those coil-over saved you some semi-sprung weight. The later 11" spindles are 3lbs heavier than the 89/90 11's

But you can take the brackets off and put a custom aluminum bracket with willwood brakes and be much lighter than the 89/90s if you are that concerned about weight. That isn't even an option on the 89/90 knuckles...

-Rich

[turbovanman²]

Simon, It just completely stuns me that you keep posting this.

-Rich

Not sure what your talking about, I've posted the same as everyone else?

[rbryant]

Not sure what your talking about, I've posted the same as everyone else?

You said he needed to have the 91+ knuckles to run on the 91+ control arms.

That isn't true. The older knuckles will work.

-Rich

[turbovanman²]

You said he needed to have the 91+ knuckles to run on the 91+ control arms.

That isn't true. The older knuckles will work.

-Rich

Well if he wanted to use the 91 K-frame/cast arms, its better to use the 91 stuff, even you agree on that,

That's why I said stick with plan B, use the 89 stuff then all he has to do is clean and install bushings, and he already has the 11" brakes with the 89 setup.

[rbryant]

Well if he wanted to use the 91 K-frame/cast arms, its better to use the 91 stuff, even you agree on that,

That's why I said stick with plan B, use the 89 stuff then all he has to do is clean and install bushings, and he already has the 11" brakes with the 89 setup.

I agree he is better off with the 91 brakes the "need" was what I disagreed with. I really am a pain in the --- sometimes aren't I. It is a wonder that I am still married given my attitude sometimes.... <sigh>

I would say he is better off with the 91+ brakes with the '90 control arms. That way he is still lighter than the 91+ setup and has better suspension geometry for lowering.

The knuckles won't move anything forward here is the picture showing that it is in the control arm

The cast arm ball joint marked by C is 10-12mm forward of the Stamped arm which is marked C:


The difference in caster angle is about +1 degree in the cast arms.

IMO the 91+ calipers are easier to work with and are more available aswell.

-Rich

[GLHNSLHT2]

But you can take the brackets off and put a custom aluminum bracket with willwood brakes and be much lighter than the 89/90s if you are that concerned about weight. That isn't even an option on the 89/90 knuckles...

-Rich

Maybe. But then you have to source all the parts, and pay through the nose.

[turbovanman²]

I would say he is better off with the 91+ brakes with the '90 control arms. That way he is still lighter than the 91+ setup and has better suspension geometry for lowering.


IMO the 91+ calipers are easier to work with and are more available aswell.

-Rich

I agree with that,