Calibrating the 2.4 running stock electronics

[1FastCSX289]

Those of you guys running a distributor with stock electronics......what did you do about fuel, timing and knock curves? What source was used to base your curves upon? I've been talking to some of the guys on the forum via PM (RBryant, Shelgame) and they have some good ideas on basing the fuel curve on known masi/lotus head engines and knock curve on the neon 2.0. Any other ideas? What about timing curve? Anyone have a link to the where I could find stock SRT4 timing?

[1FastCSX289]

Heres a link to an AEM table for timing......this is not stock timing though. So if anyone has an idea of where I could find stock timing, that would be kewl.

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f298...k-maps-392549/

[BadAssPerformance]

Damn, I thought I had that for ya but cannot find it But IIR it looked milar to that. Waaaaay more timing than I run

[CNH320]

I know you said Stock tables but you may want to take a look at the stage 3 map as both were calibrated for 93 octane but the stage 3 has more evenly distributed breakpoints in the upper MAP & RPM range and it was for a 3-bar MAP. The stock 2.4L turbo spark map was layed out for a 2.5 bar MAP and has breakpoints biased in the lower MAP ranges for more fine resolution for emissions etc...

See post #5 in this thread:

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f341...tables-538570/

I know the stock map was posted in the SRT SCT Wiki at one point but the site appears to be down as i can't get to it now.

[Aries_Turbo]

Sean, i have a spreadsheet that can help translate the SRT values into the AdvanceFromMapWarmPart and AdvanceFromMapWarmFull and AdvanceFromRPM2 tables that the SBEC uses.

as far as fuel, i can set that up pretty easily. youll just have to tune one table for the most part.

Knock.... does someone have 2.0L knock threshold values? we can tune that value in as well.

i had the values for SRT knock threshold but it was different than the values that we need as the sensor is different than the earlier 2.4L stratus sensor that you should have (same as 2.2 stuff afaik minus thread pitch) the circuit interfacing it to the MCU is different, and it took into account the fact that the knock noise was less for cyl 1 and 4 as they are further away from the sensor mounting point.

i wish we had two knock threshold tables for our ECU's... one for cyl 2 and 3 and one for cyl 1 and 4.

Brian

Brian

[1FastCSX289]

.

See post #5 in this thread:

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f341...tables-538570/
w.

You are a gentleman and a scholar. Thanks!

Sean, i have a spreadsheet that can help translate the SRT values into the AdvanceFromMapWarmPart and AdvanceFromMapWarmFull and AdvanceFromRPM2 tables that the SBEC uses.

as far as fuel, i can set that up pretty easily. youll just have to tune one table for the most part.

Knock.... does someone have 2.0L knock threshold values? we can tune that value in as well.

i had the values for SRT knock threshold but it was different than the values that we need as the sensor is different than the earlier 2.4L stratus sensor that you should have (same as 2.2 stuff afaik minus thread pitch) the circuit interfacing it to the MCU is different, and it took into account the fact that the knock noise was less for cyl 1 and 4 as they are further away from the sensor mounting point.

i wish we had two knock threshold tables for our ECU's... one for cyl 2 and 3 and one for cyl 1 and 4.

Brian

Brian

Rob Lloyd has the 2.0 knock values. Ive been talking to him about writing the cal. Ill PM you and maybe we can all get together on it if you dont mind giving me a hand.

I thought the way to go was to run the old-school 2.2 knock sensor. I dont know if its the same electronically as the stratus sensor, but they sure do look the same. And the old school sensor threads right into the 2.4 block. I wonder if there is a valid way to test the two sensors to see if they are the same electronically. Measuring resistance to ground? I dont know. Would make it easier knowing that the two sensors are the same and then we can just use the 2.0 neon values with whatever sensor......

[Aries_Turbo]

obviously im not trying to barge in on rob's business.

but you and i both know (and rob too) that its easier to dial in a cal when the car is available to physically touch.

if you want to have him take a crack at it and we can dial it in when the weather gets nicer, thats cool with me.

what id really like to get my hands on, is early 2.4L stratus knock threshold values as well as the 2.0L to see how they compare.

Brian

[Aries_Turbo]

oh.... knock sensors.

do an identical conditions test. pop one sensor in and disable all boost as much as possible (take wastegate spring out). hammer the car and datalog the sensor output via the ecu SCI connector. swap sensors and repeat. i think they are the same. i thought the threads were different though i could be completely wrong.

Brian

[t3rse]

Heres a link to an AEM table for timing......this is not stock timing though. So if anyone has an idea of where I could find stock timing, that would be kewl.

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f298...k-maps-392549/

It's in the KC....

[Aries_Turbo]

It's in the KC....

i was gonna say... didnt we put that in there?

brian

[Twisted Noodle]

if you want to have him take a crack at it and we can dial it in when the weather gets nicer, thats cool with me. Brian

What do you mean? It's 65 and sunny here..


...I'm sorry

[1FastCSX289]

obviously im not trying to barge in on rob's business.

but you and i both know (and rob too) that its easier to dial in a cal when the car is available to physically touch.

if you want to have him take a crack at it and we can dial it in when the weather gets nicer, thats cool with me.

what id really like to get my hands on, is early 2.4L stratus knock threshold values as well as the 2.0L to see how they compare.

Brian

Yea, I think thats what I will do. Ill have Rob make up a cal. Ill see if I can get the 2.4 stratus knock.....if not, we will use the 2.0 (same head, should be the same). That will get me up and running and then once the weather breaks, ill hit you up to give me a hand DL'ing. Maybe over at your place where we can blast down some country roads.

oh.... knock sensors.

do an identical conditions test. pop one sensor in and disable all boost as much as possible (take wastegate spring out). hammer the car and datalog the sensor output via the ecu SCI connector. swap sensors and repeat. i think they are the same. i thought the threads were different though i could be completely wrong.

Brian

Definately the same thread because I checked the stock sensor and screwed it right into the 2.4 block. And no, I didnt cross thread it in there with an impact gun.

It's in the KC....

What do you mean? It's 65 and sunny here..


...I'm sorry

Ummmmm.......

[ShelGame]

obviously im not trying to barge in on rob's business.

but you and i both know (and rob too) that its easier to dial in a cal when the car is available to physically touch.

if you want to have him take a crack at it and we can dial it in when the weather gets nicer, thats cool with me.

what id really like to get my hands on, is early 2.4L stratus knock threshold values as well as the 2.0L to see how they compare.

Brian

Not at all. All he wants from me is a base cal anyway. I don't usually charge for that. So, why don't we do a colaborative effort to make him one? I'm sure it would help everyone out that is going 2.4 or hybrid.

I have a couple of 94/95 Neon cals. I found the knock table. The high and low voltages are very similar to the 2.2, but the middle section is much different. Since the Neon is SBEC-II anyway, I'm pretty sure the knock control circuitry is the same. I think we could simply scale the Neon knock table by the same ratio as the difference between the 2.2 and 2.5 knock tables (the 2.5 has a slightly higher threshold) to get it close to where the 2.4 should be.

I also think I found the 3D spark tables, and compared it to the T3. Some similarities and some big differences. I still need to figure out the input table scaling first, though. I haven't been able to find a good 68HC16 dis-assembler to fully dis-assemble the Neon code either...

[ShelGame]

Yea, I think thats what I will do. Ill have Rob make up a cal. Ill see if I can get the 2.4 stratus knock.....if not, we will use the 2.0 (same head, should be the same). That will get me up and running and then once the weather breaks, ill hit you up to give me a hand DL'ing. Maybe over at your place where we can blast down some country roads.

I think the head and block structuire define the basic shape of the knock curve, but the engine power/torque output will affect the voltage level. Like I said above, I think we can scale the 2.0 Neon knock curve to get close to the 2.4 shape.

[Aries_Turbo]

95 was the first year for the 2.4L in the stratus right? i wonder if we can get ahold of one of those beasts.

Brian

[BadAssPerformance]

95 maybe or 96 for sure

[ShelGame]

95 was the first year for the 2.4L in the stratus right? i wonder if we can get ahold of one of those beasts.

Brian

But, I don't think they used the FCC (Four-Cylinder-Controller) - basically just a 16-bit SBECII. Becuase the '95 Neon came out so early in '94, the first year cars were not OBDII compliant. But, I think the cloud cars were; and they used the JTEC(?) controller. Could be wrong there.

EDIT: Just checked a pic of a '95 Stratus computer on eBay - it's got the dual 50-pin connectors like the '96+ Neon. So, I think they're probably not the same code as the '94/95 Neon FCC...

[Aries_Turbo]

that sucks. that 96-2002 gap of unobtainable information sure is annoying.

Brian

[1FastCSX289]

Not at all. All he wants from me is a base cal anyway. I don't usually charge for that. So, why don't we do a colaborative effort to make him one? I'm sure it would help everyone out that is going 2.4 or hybrid.

Thats great.....thanks A LOT!! Yes, if we could get something that is close on the knock curve and timing curves (which I now see we have in our own dang knowledge center!!), I feel pretty confident in dialing in the fuel as long as its close enough to start and run (especially with Bucar's help). I am just real nervous about the dang knock being accurate b/c I ate a couple motors running SDS electronics b/c I could never get the knock control correct.

I thought for sure when I started this thread, SOMEONE would have done this already b/c I know Rich has been making the conversion kits for some time now.....theres got to be someone running stock electronics on a 2.4!?!? But, this would be a great base cal to have archived.

[Aries_Turbo]

So, why don't we do a colaborative effort to make him one? I'm sure it would help everyone out that is going 2.4 or hybrid.

when we are all done with this, ill post it up.

ill datalog the knock volts with a scanner and make sean ride the brakes really hard so we get a good sample of voltage and RPM points. ill also use external knock listening means to make sure we dont have actual knock at that time.

the srt timing is going to be pretty different than the TIII or masi stuff or even the 2.0L dohc neon because of those goofy stock pistons. sean is using them and im going to in the future too.

dialing the fuel in should be cake.

Brian