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Thread: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

  1. #1
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    So darn near everyone here knows about the Mitsu 2.6L. You know, that carb-only, auto-only sohc 8-valve inline 4-cylinder Chrysler used to put in cars and vans before they came up with the 2.5L?

    Here's a list of k-car apps:
    1981-1985 Dodge Aries/Plymouth Reliant
    1982-1985 Chrysler LeBaron
    1982-1985 Chrysler Town and Country
    1982-1983 Dodge 400
    1983-1984 Chrysler E-Class
    1983-1985 Chrysler New Yorker/Dodge 600
    1984-1987 Dodge Caravan/Plymouth Voyager
    1985 Plymouth Caravelle

    So what about putting the turbo into this mopar and giving it a real place at T-M?

    For the turbo-mopar community audience, its got some obvious cons:

    It didnt COME with a turbo (in this platform):
    This may be a blow to egos here, but there are PLENTY of people in our community who will never get past that fact, and in many cases its because their limited knowledge/ambition means that they CANT get past it.


    There is NO SUPPORT at all from vendors who cater to this community. That means real home-grown hot-rodding and cross-platform learning, another thing that turns away a good number of people. How many times have we heard people complaining 'I cant find any parts to buy for this/that!' So you want to be a Retail Lemming and you cant find anyone to profit off you? Buy a Honda..


    Lack of support in the community. Im sure there are people who would like to ask questions about the motor but figure they'll get the standard 'ditch it and swap to 2.2/2.5 turbo' routine, and dont bother to ask. I've given the '2.2/2.5 swap' line to others, too.. but not because i think its always the BEST or most interesting path, just the most likely for most people to succeed at.



    It has some maintenance issues.
    People here like to take for granted that the 2.2s and 2.5s survived all the owners they had before us, and believe that motors that cant take equivalent levels of abuse and neglect and still run fine are somehow crap, while simultaneously telling all the newbies that the first thing they should do to their new turbo-mopar is maintenance/tune-up. Obviously, i think there's duplicity here.. But what are the specific maintenance issues? Something about a balance shaft snapping and failing to turn the oil pump, resulting in engine failure. And something about jet valves, right? Help me out.


    Its Auto-only. Definitely a big drawback, but plenty of T-Mers are pimping the 3spds.

    Lack of precedent. As many people as there are who will turn away from a job that isnt easy, there are others who would happily attempt even a difficult series of modifications.. if they knew someone else had done it. Since there aren't readily available cases of people sticking with the 2.6L in these platforms and making it perform, a lot of questions and thoughts about using the 2.6 probably die early.


    -----------------

    What about pros, though? Here's what im thinking up so far:

    It DID come as a turbo in other platforms. To me, it doesnt seem like the turbo and non-turbo 2.6s are separated by any more than what seperates the carb and turbo 2.2s.. And a converted carb 2.2 car has been one of the biggest poster boys for this platform, and the accompanying online knowledge base is still one of our most-linked FAQs.

    It has a strong bottom end.
    How strong? I dont know. I have this vague impression that their pistons, crank and rods arent any less durable the the 2.2/2.5 in their respective carb/turbo versions.

    It has a comparable top end.
    How comparable? I dont know. I have this vague impression that the 2.6L cylinder head can support roughly similar airflow and rpm as our 8v top ends.

    It uses basically the same 3spd as the factory turbo cars.
    Which means it can be built to handle anything we can make a 2.6L dish out, and with common/cheap interchangeable parts.


    It is potentially a more turbo-friendly layout.
    You know, where the turbo is NOT hiding under the intake manifold?





    -----------

    There's been some discussion about this motor and its turbo-potential in recent pages of this thread:
    http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=41709

    If we can move some of that productive info/discussion into a central, searchable location, not only can we hammer out some of the basics for those of us who are interested right now, but we can create something to refer people back to in the future.

    Personally, im interested in building a turbo 2.6/auto k-car, and ive got a complete factory 2.6 car which could be a good start.. Im ready to hear what info anyone has to offer! And, ill be updating this original post with the BASIC headings of pros/cons we discuss so that eventually it may be comprehensive enough to refine into a good FAQ/Knowledge Center contribution.
    Last edited by Vigo; 01-24-2010 at 10:47 PM.

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  2. #2
    Garrett booster
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    So basically you want to put a Mitsubishi Starion (aka Chrysler Conquest) engine setup in there? http://www.allpar.com/cars/chrysler/conquest.html

    An episode of Top Gear uses the Starion as a cheap car in some tests, and that car did like 190 MPH on the speed track. Clarkson eventually fouled up the engine by putting a HUGE racing turbo on it, and the engine wasn't able to keep cool. I might point out that it had a MT.

    I was just looking into this the other day, but stopped when I realized I would need money to do it...

    Sounds like fun, and I wonder what kind of number on could get out of the engine.

  3. #3
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    So basically you want to put a Mitsubishi Starion (aka Chrysler Conquest) engine setup in there?
    As far as i know... basically. Realistically, i think the most useable parts from the OEM starion setup are the exhaust manifold, the TBI unit itself, and the pistons. I dont know enough to say much more for now, but im hoping to learn

    The Starion/Conquest community and the Mitsu truck community should have plenty of info to glean from if we can find/sift through it all.

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  4. #4
    boostaholic
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    i thought they had hemi heads?

    that would go on the pros list IMO

  5. #5
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    So quit flapping and get it done,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

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  6. #6
    turbo addict Dodge Aries K's Avatar
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    They do have hemi heads for sure. Hell, the 81 K-cars with this engine had a badge that said HEMI 2.6 on em.



    I so volunteer to use my crappy van for this to see what can be done. I only paid $175 for it so it's no big deal to experiment on it to see what happens. Plus it being a 1986 minivan means it has NO crap jet valves to cause havoc anyway... just standard 8 valve action.

  7. #7
    turbo addict
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    Some links...

    http://www.enginemachineservice.com/conquest.html Parts, known as "Pop's Machine Shop" in Starquest circles.

    http://www.racetep.com/montero.html Turbo kits for N/A Montero/Raider 2.6

    http://www.4x4wire.com/mitsubishi/tech/turbo_monty/ How one guy converted his N/A 2.6 Montero to turbo.

    190HP and 180ftlb is apparently possible on stock N/A bottom ends @ 8 PSI with a turbo cam and water injection.

  8. #8
    boostaholic
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    Go for it. The 2.6L is an ok engine if it has oil pressure. The reason they don't exist anymore is because they were like the T3 motors... you could have the oil pump stop turning and the engine would keep running!

    I once test drove a Chrysler Conquest TSI with a friend... we noticed the engine seemed noisier as the test drive got longer. Once we got back to the house, the engine was smoking and knocking really bad. We said "no thanks". We would have never taken the car out if we *knew* it had no oil pressure, but the owner didn't mention anything and the dash didn't have any indication of low oil pressure!

  9. #9
    turbo addict blk86trbo's Avatar
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    Quote Originally Posted by jckrieger View Post
    Go for it. The 2.6L is an ok engine if it has oil pressure. The reason they don't exist anymore is because they were like the T3 motors... you could have the oil pump stop turning and the engine would keep running!

    I once test drove a Chrysler Conquest TSI with a friend... we noticed the engine seemed noisier as the test drive got longer. Once we got back to the house, the engine was smoking and knocking really bad. We said "no thanks". We would have never taken the car out if we *knew* it had no oil pressure, but the owner didn't mention anything and the dash didn't have any indication of low oil pressure!
    IIRC Karl said that the 2.6's didn't have a warning light specifically for oil pressure...he ruined an engine the same way!
    [FONT="Arial Black"]Paul[/FONT] [B][SIZE="1"]US ARMY INFANTRY VETERAN[/B] 1995 Dodge Stealth R/T White DOHC 5 speed 1994 Dodge Stealth R/T Red DOHC 5 speed 1992 Dodge Daytona IROC, Blue TI 5 speed (2) 1992 Dodge Daytona IROC, Red TI auto 1991 Dodge Spirit R/T, Red (project) 1989 Shelby CSX-VNT #382 1989 Dodge Shadow ES, White TI auto 1987 Daytona Shelby Z, White TII 1987 Chrysler T&C wagon, Tan TII auto 1985 Dodge Lancer ES, Bronze TI auto 1982 Wife, White[/SIZE] [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #10
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    balance shaft elimination will raise oil pressure and eliminate the worry about the failure of the chain/guides...at least for a long time anyway...also shortens the timing chain quite a bit....there is noticable vibrations as a result though.

    But...As far as the aftermarket support, you are correct that there isn't much...but...there is one guy on ebay (calls himself Mookeh) that makes some interesting parts for these engines, and the cars. (I've gotten quite a few things from him myself)
    One being all the stuff to run the Ford EDIS on a 2.6. Many people run that for timing control and have been sucessful, along with megasquirt.
    Also, on a stock starion/conquest (starquest for short) platform in 1989, they made 188hp and 234lb ft of tq. So...they are pretty potent engines bone stock....and, basically tire spinners in a FWD application...lol

  11. #11
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    Quote Originally Posted by blk86trbo View Post
    IIRC Karl said that the 2.6's didn't have a warning light specifically for oil pressure...he ruined an engine the same way!
    the quests have a gauge...but, its delay time is rediculous. If you rev it up to 6k then just let it fall back to idle.

    About half way down to idle, the gauge starts going up...lol

    so, very dangerous indeed.

  12. #12
    Boost, it's what's for dinner... Turbo Mopar Staff Aries_Turbo's Avatar
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    a Megasquirted 2.6L-T would be pretty sweet.

    if you were crazy enough, you could even stick with the TBI setup and use a 7.4L chevy TBI unit and set the base pressure to 13psi and still have headroom (fuel pressure wise) for ~22psi of boost. they should flow enough for 350-400hp.

    anyone have head flow numbers?

    Brian

  13. #13
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    So quit flapping and get it done,
    Hmm, turbo 3.8 AWD van?

    Actual 400whp dyno plot?


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  14. #14
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    http://www.racetep.com/monturbo.html#basic

    The numbers they list for power seem odd. I would think the torque number would be much higher. But 190chp @8psi is smoking compared to what a 2.2 or 2.5 would do at 8 psi. Might be rpm related.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_K_engine
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubi...on_engine#4G54

    In those articles the bore and stroke for the 2.5 and 2.6 are:
    2.5: 87.5mm X 104mm
    2.6: 91.1mm X 98mm

    anyone have head flow numbers?
    I'll be looking.. I do think the heads have noticeably larger stock valves than the 2.2/2.5s. The larger bore and hemi/dome style chamber make more room for valves, which is nice. Also, in the Wiki above it says the non turbo fuel injected 2.6 made it up to 138hp, which says a lot for flow compared to the 2.2/2.5 which never got past 113hp n/a, even with the mpi manifold.
    Last edited by Vigo; 01-24-2010 at 10:59 PM.

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  15. #15
    Hybrid booster
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    crossflow has a lot to do with that I would think...

    I'll do some snooping on the starquest sites to see if I can come up with any headflow numbers.

  16. #16
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Force Fed Mopar's Avatar
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    The TBI system on the TSi is one of the first things that should be ditched when going for good power. It's not a particularly good system even when working right. IMO, the 2.6 has the same potential as a TBI 2.2/2.5. The head actually probably flows better. But, also IMO, only good reason to build one is to say you did it I don't see it being a cost effective way to make power.
    Rob M.
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  17. #17
    boostaholic
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    i wanna see a 2.6 head on one of our motors

    its been proven for like 50 years now... hemi = power plain and simple

  18. #18
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    IMO, the 2.6 has the same potential as a TBI 2.2/2.5.
    Oddly enough, in the first year or two the tbi 2.2s came with a throttle body that looked like the starion one.. and i think its a better piece!

    Anything *I* do will be cost effective. Which probably means i wouldnt set any records.. but im still thinking that it would be possible to bolt an exhaust manifold+turbo and a tbi unit from a Starion onto any 2.6 and make equivalent or better power than a stock 2.2/2.5 turbo motor. Getting it to run would be the trick in my mind, at this point. Modified starion ecu? Megasquirt? Id take a running car over fruitless ambitions any day, so ill be doing whatever i can get for the least money, but its all up in the air so far.


    ...And after i do the turbo 2.6, how bout a diesel?
    http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/i...r&fromsearch=1

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  19. #19
    Moderator Turbo Mopar Staff Vigo's Avatar
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.a...113841&eq=&Tp=
    http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.a...113744&eq=&Tp=

    So, 55 and 95 lb/hr injectors.. My 'two of the big ones' idea seems plausible for supporting a good amount of power.

    Plus check out these sizes.. up to 1600cc per?!
    http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/i...r&fromsearch=1

    "I need two of the big ones.. and i need em by tonight!" ROFL

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  20. #20
    turbo addict
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    Re: The oft-ignored 2.6L g54b, separate but equal?

    2.6 has a mech valve train = bonus
    hemi head= bonus
    bal shafts delete mod= bonus
    forged bottom end =bonus

    now for the dist might be able to adapt a 2.2/2.5 dist.like the 2.4's
    this will let you use the 2.2/2.5 ecm and just adjust the cal in mp tuner

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