Copper Head Gasket

[Dan15]

On summitracing.com they have SCE gaskets ranging from $70 to $130.
I've read on other forums that they are reuseable
Just wanted to confirm this?
Also they come in .031 .062 .093
What would be the benefits and disadvantages to each of these sizes??

[turbovanman²]

Without O-rings, they will leak.

[rbryant]

Without O-rings, they will leak.

Clarification on the copper head gaskets:

Without orings the entire gasket will leak.

With orings you will leak coolant within a few thousand miles max.

-Rich

[turbovanman²]

Clarification on the copper head gaskets:

Without orings the entire gasket will leak.

With orings you will leak coolant within a few thousand miles max.

-Rich

Nice, lol.

I have used the .020" Felpro copper shims with no issues.

[rbryant]

Nice, lol.

I have used the .020" Felpro copper shims with no issues.

The shim is different than running only the copper gasket.

The shim seals ok on the block side but the regular gasket is still there for the head.

If you run only copper it just doesn't seal the head very well at all. The orings help because they push the gasket into the head around the cylinders but the coolant holes are still a big problem.

Unless you are running a drag car I wouldn't suggest a copper gasket. It is the only gasket that i have ever installed that leaked right away.

-Rich

[cdavis]

. It is the only gasket that i have ever installed that leaked right away.

-Rich

Same here.

[Dan15]

Nice, lol.

I have used the .020" Felpro copper shims with no issues.

Purpose of shims is to lower compression?

[135sohc]

Purpose of shims is to lower compression?

Yup. Resurfacing the head, decking the block or an align bore and everything moves closer together.

[2.216VTurbo]

Purpose of shims is to lower compression?

Correct.

Not sure why Rich and Simon had so much trouble with the copper shims but I ran them for years on my Shelby Lancer and GLHS 991 back in the day without leaking anything. I used a sealant called Gas-Ga-Cinch. It's like a snot yellow glue that seals the gaskets and holds them in place. Clean all the surfaces well, paint a layer of gasgacinch on the block and the underside of the copper shim. let them tack up for 5 minutes or so, assemble. then paint the top of the shim and the underside of the head gasket, let them tack and assemble. Then use copper permatex spray on the top of the headgasket and install the head after it dries for an hour or so. If the head and block are flat, it won't leak. Consider that your cam timing will be out of whack if the distance from the crank to the cam has changed by installing the shim. I used to use the shim to reduce the compression to run more boost but now I just reshape the chamber in the head and the compression goes down some that way.

Why are you considering the shim, has the head been severly milled?

[rbryant]

Correct.

Not sure why Rich and Simon had so much trouble with the copper shims but I ran them for years on my Shelby Lancer and GLHS 991 back in the day without leaking anything. I used a sealant called Gas-Ga-Cinch. It's like a snot yellow glue that seals the gaskets and holds them in place. Clean all the surfaces well, paint a layer of gasgacinch on the block and the underside of the copper shim. let them tack up for 5 minutes or so, assemble. then paint the top of the shim and the underside of the head gasket, let them tack and assemble. Then use copper permatex spray on the top of the headgasket and install the head after it dries for an hour or so. If the head and block are flat, it won't leak. Consider that your cam timing will be out of whack if the distance from the crank to the cam has changed by installing the shim. I used to use the shim to reduce the compression to run more boost but now I just reshape the chamber in the head and the compression goes down some that way.

Why are you considering the shim, has the head been severly milled?

Shims are fine. Using copper as the only head gasket is what causes problems...

-Rich

[turbovanman²]

The shim is different than running only the copper gasket.

The shim seals ok on the block side but the regular gasket is still there for the head.

If you run only copper it just doesn't seal the head very well at all. The orings help because they push the gasket into the head around the cylinders but the coolant holes are still a big problem.

Unless you are running a drag car I wouldn't suggest a copper gasket. It is the only gasket that i have ever installed that leaked right away.

-Rich

I put out the shim for knowledge as I figured he might ask about them.

Correct.

Not sure why Rich and Simon had so much trouble with the copper shims but I ran them for years on my Shelby Lancer and GLHS 991 back in the day without leaking anything. I used a sealant called Gas-Ga-Cinch. It's like a snot yellow glue that seals the gaskets and holds them in place. Clean all the surfaces well, paint a layer of gasgacinch on the block and the underside of the copper shim. let them tack up for 5 minutes or so, assemble. then paint the top of the shim and the underside of the head gasket, let them tack and assemble. Then use copper permatex spray on the top of the headgasket and install the head after it dries for an hour or so. If the head and block are flat, it won't leak. Consider that your cam timing will be out of whack if the distance from the crank to the cam has changed by installing the shim. I used to use the shim to reduce the compression to run more boost but now I just reshape the chamber in the head and the compression goes down some that way.

Why are you considering the shim, has the head been severly milled?

We are talking about copper only, not a shim and a head gasket. As I said earlier, I use a shim and have no issues,

[Dan15]

Why are you considering the shim, has the head been severly milled?

No the head hasn't been milled. I was at first interested in the copper head gasket because of the ability to be reused and supposedly prevent any gasket blowouts from high boost. But I don't want to mess with the copper headgasket anymore.
Then Simon mentioned the shim and I was just making sure I understood the purpose of them.

Alan, Simon, or anyone that has had experience with them, If I plan to run 21 to 24psi would you suggest using a shim to lower compression?



-Daniel

[turbovanman²]

No the head hasn't been milled. I was at first interested in the copper head gasket because of the ability to be reused and supposedly prevent any gasket blowouts from high boost.
Then Simon mentioned the shim and I was just making sure I understood the purpose of them.

Alan, or anyone that has had experience with them, If I plan to run 21 to 24psi would you suggest using a shim to lower compression?



-Daniel

Honestly, unless you've milled the head a ton, just use a MP 005 head gasket and never look back. I've used Cometic and if used once, they work fine, never had any luck running them again. I will forever use 005's and right now, a shim as my head was milled too much-we miscalculated,

[Dan15]

Honestly, unless you've milled the head a ton, just use a MP 005 head gasket and never look back. I've used Cometic and if used once, they work fine, never had any luck running them again. I will forever use 005's and right now, a shim as my head was milled too much-we miscalculated,

Would you spray the MP with the permatex copper spray??
And These will hold up fine to 24psi?

[turbovanman²]

Would you spray the MP with the permatex copper spray??
And These will hold up fine to 24psi?

I put them on dry, unless the head has some marks or wear. Its a matter of choice, some swear by it, some don't.

I've put over 30 psi thru them, many others have too. They really are the best bang for the buck.

[Ondonti]

You have to use o rings around the cylinders, otherwise it won't seal compression. Normal headgaskets have fire rings which put more clamp pressure around the combustion chamber. copper only has a fire ring when you use an O ring.

The current hot product for sealing copper headgaskets (o ringed) is hylomar.
Use hylomar as instructed during install. Then heat cycle the motor with no coolant and let the engine sit for 24 hours.
Hylomar is expensive stuff. Don't use copper spray on a copper gasket when trying to do a proper install.

This is the way to make 1000+whp on a +.100" bore 6g72 which is notorious for the cylinder head flexing. Properly installed it should not leak.

Headgasket.com also says that annealing is a pointless procedure when it comes to sealing copper headgaskets.

I have been using copper wire out of electronic wire combined with MLS gaskets and getting great results.
Cometic gaskets are junk in the world of MLS. Do some googling on them along with "pressure film" and see how they are rubbish.
For mitsu guys, Stock MLS has a much better fire ring.

[shadow88]

Just so we're clear on this, this is the "head saver" shim. 0.020" thick and to be used under a head gasket.




I plan to use a 005 gasket and new bolts, but I'm not sure about the sealer. Like Simon, I ended up with too much compression due to machining. The car detonated like crazy last year, but this should help if the race gas isn't enough.

The instructions say gasket sealer must be used, but they don't tell you what one to use. I have access to gas - ka-cinch as Alan mentioned. I also have access to MoPar spray gasket. The same stuff used to fill in the gaps of the MLS gasket used on neons.