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Thread: Thrust bearing failure?

  1. #1

    Thrust bearing failure?

    What can cause a thrust bearing to fail within 3,000 miles? I put a newish Garrett on my van, seemed fine before installation, but the thing was dumping oil into the exhaust like crazy! I pulled it out to find 3 mm end-play, so I am guessing that the thrust bearing is sh*t. What could be the root cause of this? Possibly just a bad thrust bearing? There really is no side-play to speak of, just the end play. I am sure this was the source of the smoking problem that I was having.
    I am worried about putting my new .50 trim on and damaging it in the same way. What should I pay particular attention to?

    -Les

  2. #2
    turbo addict
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Depends on which side of the thrust bearing fail...

    Lack of working BOV
    Catalytic converter (exhaust) is clogged.

  3. #3
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Most common reason's are dirty oil, followed by shoddy workmanship/cheap components.

    I redid a turbo for a guy, it lasted one week, they didn't balance it, took out the bearings and smoked like a chimney. When I had it balanced, he said it was way out,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

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  4. #4

    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    BOV is a new RFL; it works really well. I have no catalytic converter. I have a full 3" exhaust (3" TU! SV, 3" DP, 3" Dynomax Bullet). The oil has been changed MANY times; I use Mopar filters and I have changed oil twice recently (because I thought the higher oil pressure was making the oil seep past the oil control ring on the turbine side).
    Anything else, guys?

    -Les

  5. #5
    Basic Vendor (MSD, Hawk, etc) Turbo Mopar Contributor rbryant's Avatar
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    BOV is a new RFL; it works really well. I have no catalytic converter. I have a full 3" exhaust (3" TU! SV, 3" DP, 3" Dynomax Bullet). The oil has been changed MANY times; I use Mopar filters and I have changed oil twice recently (because I thought the higher oil pressure was making the oil seep past the oil control ring on the turbine side).
    Anything else, guys?

    -Les
    Where is your boost gauge located?

    If the intercooler is clogged or your intercooler hoses are small/kinked/etc and you are looking at the intake manifold side (after the intercooler) then you might be pushing the turbo a lot harder than you think...

    -Rich

  6. #6

    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbryant View Post
    Where is your boost gauge located?

    If the intercooler is clogged or your intercooler hoses are small/kinked/etc and you are looking at the intake manifold side (after the intercooler) then you might be pushing the turbo a lot harder than you think...

    -Rich
    This could be, Rich, but the I/C and I/C piping I am using is pretty big (2.5"). I have never taken a pre-I/C reading to find out what kind of pressure drop I am getting across the I/C. I was only running the boost at 18 psi, so worst case scenario I wouldn't think I was pushing the turbo much past 20 psi. although I could be wrong. I will hook up a pre-I/C guage just to be sure. Don't you think the Garrett ought to be good to ~24-25 psi, though?
    I have a new .50 trim and a new cal. from Rob. That should keep me busy for a minute!

    -Les

  7. #7
    Basic Vendor (MSD, Hawk, etc) Turbo Mopar Contributor rbryant's Avatar
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    This could be, Rich, but the I/C and I/C piping I am using is pretty big (2.5"). I have never taken a pre-I/C reading to find out what kind of pressure drop I am getting across the I/C. I was only running the boost at 18 psi, so worst case scenario I wouldn't think I was pushing the turbo much past 20 psi. although I could be wrong. I will hook up a pre-I/C guage just to be sure. Don't you think the Garrett ought to be good to ~24-25 psi, though?
    I have a new .50 trim and a new cal. from Rob. That should keep me busy for a minute!

    -Les
    They should handle 25psi if they have good oil supply/return and a BOV.

    Just tossing out ideas.

    -Rich

  8. #8
    turbo addict Chris W's Avatar
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    As already mentioned these two are the most likely causes:

    1. BOV improperly hooked up
    2. Backpressure from exhaust

    It could also be caused by an inadequate suppy of oil to the thrust bearing. Some thrust bearings have very small oil feeder holes which can become clogged easily. Did you assemble/rebuild the turbo?

    Chris-TU
    Chris Wright www.TurbosUnleashed.com Chris@TurbosUnleashed.com 602-76-BOOST Tech/Sales#: Monday-Saturday 9AM-7PM MST Proudly Serving the Turbo-Mopar Community since 1997 TU is a performance, not marketing company. We provide accurate performance data on all our performance products. Fabricating data to make us appear better is just not our style. Do the research before you buy. ROCK BOTTOM PRICES WITHOUT THE HIDDEN HANDLING FEES.... -----HOME OF THE 9 SECOND FWD T-M CLUTCH-----

  9. #9
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Also, check for a plugged return or maybe the hose collapsed.
    Last edited by turbovanmanČ; 01-08-2010 at 11:27 PM.
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  10. #10
    Basic Vendor (MSD, Hawk, etc) Turbo Mopar Contributor rbryant's Avatar
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris W View Post
    Did you assemble/rebuild the turbo?

    Chris-TU
    It is my old turbo and it was rebuilt professionally shortly before I sold it to him by a qualified rebuilder. I probably drove it 100 miles and it was tight when he got it.

    It had a standard 270 degree thrust bearing in it that was basically new.

    Hard to say what happened really anything is possible.

    It would suck to blow up another one if it wasn't something with the turbo.

    -Rich

  11. #11
    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Are you turbo savy? can you take it apart and fix it or? take snaps?
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  12. #12

    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Yeah, I can take it apart and take some pics; probably will today. I haven't taken one of these apart before, but I have taken a couple of Mitsu's apart and they weren't too bad. I followed a tutorial on www.vfaq.com and went step by step, although it is pretty self-explanitory once you start taking it apart.
    Like I said, the BOV exhausts the I/C pipes like it should, but is there a vac./boost reference point that is more beneficial to draw from for the BOV? I have mine hooked to a T that comes right off of the intake. I mean, I used a Fox body vacuum tree and used an intake manifold reference to feed it. As soon as I shut the door it "whooooshes".
    I would think that if the oil was the culprit, the bearings would have been the first to go and there is VERY little side-play. Remember that I was having really high oil pressures on start-up? It would go to ~75-80 psi when cold then warm it would idle around ~22-25. Simon said that he has run higher oil pressures with no ill affects (should that be Effects? lol), so I figured that it was fine other than losing some hp due to the higher pressures.
    My exhaust is very free-flowing. I am running a 3" Turbos Unleashed! swing valve, to a 3" downpipe, to a 3" flex coupler, then to a 3" Bullet muffler (I can stick my fist all the way through it) to a 3" tail pipe that exits before the passenger's rear tire.
    I did check the drain pipe. All was clear. Here, I am using a NEW Silicon hose (it was inspected as well), and I used my mirror and light to look through the nipple that goes back into the block. I then used a large screwdriver to go down through the hole to make sure there were no obstructions that I could not see. The drain gasket off of the turbo is a dry gasket; absolutely NO silicone was used here (so no diminished drain area).
    And, yes, I checked this turbo before I installed it and it was tight; the thing looked great right out of the box. I just need to check and recheck everything to make sure that I don't do this again. This sh*t is getting expensive, LOL! Nah, no biggie. I am going to repair this one just so I can have one on the shelf; or maybe trade it for a converter

    -Les

  13. #13

    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Oh, I installed a new stainless steel coolant/oil line kit for the turbo before this turbo went on. Also, does anyone think that I need to un-shim the BOV. I was having a problem with the BOV "shuttering" during cruising speeds. It didn't really hurt performance I guess, but it was very annoying and shimming the spring inside allowed me to get rid of that problem. Do you think the shimmed spring would cause so much delay that it could cause the turbo to thrust too hard/often?

    -Les

  14. #14

    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    http://s865.photobucket.com/albums/a...asleep_photos/

    Here are a couple of pics that I took with my camera before the battery went dead. I took more on my wife's camera, but her battery had no charge either. This is what I found; (1) the compressor had made contact with the compressor cover causing grooves to form around the inside perimeter of the compressor housing. The turbine had made contact with the sheet metal cover that is behind it. These contact areas were made in small increments, I believe, because there was no *bent* metal due to contact. The metal was *machined*, if you will. (2) S evere coking between the sheet metal guard and the cartridge on the turbine side. This is odd because I have a turbo timer and have it set for 90 seconds. It was installed right after I got the van (WAY before this turbo) because I already had it off of the Colt GT that I had sold before getting the van. Once I scraped off the surface of the sheet metal cover and cartridge, there was about 2 TBS. worth of coked oil. (3) I found the thrust bearing to be *machined* into a "V" groove on the inside perimeter of the bearing. There is a piece that sort of saddles the thrust bearing, but the inside (the side closest to the middle of the cartridge) was very thin in parts and no longer there in others. (4) The bushings are in near-perfect condition. They fit tightly around the shaft. They move a little within the cartridge (as I assume there should be an oil barrier in between the outside of the bushing and the inside of the bushing), but it is still very minimal.
    What do you think? The more I look at this, the more I think it may have been a sub-standard build, but it seemed tight before-hand.
    If the oil was inadequate, wouldn't the bearings show more wear before the thrust bearing?

    -Les

  15. #15
    Basic Vendor (MSD, Hawk, etc) Turbo Mopar Contributor rbryant's Avatar
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    http://s865.photobucket.com/albums/a...asleep_photos/

    Here are a couple of pics that I took with my camera before the battery went dead. I took more on my wife's camera, but her battery had no charge either. This is what I found; (1) the compressor had made contact with the compressor cover causing grooves to form around the inside perimeter of the compressor housing. The turbine had made contact with the sheet metal cover that is behind it. These contact areas were made in small increments, I believe, because there was no *bent* metal due to contact. The metal was *machined*, if you will. (2) S evere coking between the sheet metal guard and the cartridge on the turbine side. This is odd because I have a turbo timer and have it set for 90 seconds. It was installed right after I got the van (WAY before this turbo) because I already had it off of the Colt GT that I had sold before getting the van. Once I scraped off the surface of the sheet metal cover and cartridge, there was about 2 TBS. worth of coked oil. (3) I found the thrust bearing to be *machined* into a "V" groove on the inside perimeter of the bearing. There is a piece that sort of saddles the thrust bearing, but the inside (the side closest to the middle of the cartridge) was very thin in parts and no longer there in others. (4) The bushings are in near-perfect condition. They fit tightly around the shaft. They move a little within the cartridge (as I assume there should be an oil barrier in between the outside of the bushing and the inside of the bushing), but it is still very minimal.
    What do you think? The more I look at this, the more I think it may have been a sub-standard build, but it seemed tight before-hand.
    If the oil was inadequate, wouldn't the bearings show more wear before the thrust bearing?

    -Les
    What are the details on your drain line? What angle is it at, size, etc.

    I trust the turbo builder. He has been in business for a very long time and has done literally 10s of thousands of turbo rebuilds.

    -Rich

  16. #16

    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    The turbo drain line is the stock tube that fits into the block. There is a silicon tube that goes in between the block tube and the turbo drain tube. The turbo drain tube (the rigid one; metal) is nearly the same angle as the tube that fits into the block. Meaning, the silicon coupler doesn't have to bend much (if at all) to link the two ends together. Do you understand my description, or do I need to be clearer? I already took it down, or I would have taken a pic of it.

    -Les

  17. #17

    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    I added more pics, too, Rich if you want to take another look.

    -Les

  18. #18
    Basic Vendor (MSD, Hawk, etc) Turbo Mopar Contributor rbryant's Avatar
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    The turbo drain line is the stock tube that fits into the block. There is a silicon tube that goes in between the block tube and the turbo drain tube. The turbo drain tube (the rigid one; metal) is nearly the same angle as the tube that fits into the block. Meaning, the silicon coupler doesn't have to bend much (if at all) to link the two ends together. Do you understand my description, or do I need to be clearer? I already took it down, or I would have taken a pic of it.

    -Les
    That's cool.

    Just trying to cover everything I can think of.

    -Rich

  19. #19

    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    How about this folks: not enough ventilation for the crankcase. Tell me if this makes sense, guys. I devised my own PCV system by reading posts and trying to come up with the best system. While putting this set-up (the current turbo that we are writing about), I installed a catch can to the mix. I did a lot of changes, too, hoping to improve my van.
    My PCV system is made up of a tube that runs from the nipple on the back of my valve cover (next to #4 injector) to one nipple on the catch can. On the outlet side (nipple #2) of the catch can, there is a tube that leads to the turbo inlet tract (cold air intake with a K&N on one side). I did not make provisions for a PCV valve using a "T" in the catch can tubing. I should have "T'd" right off of the valve cover nipple and put a PCV valve in between the nipple on the valve cover and the intake vac./boost reference point. The other side of the "T" could have remained the same as I have now (the catch can side).
    There are no vents for the crank case. My oil cap is non-vented and my catch can is non-vented. So is it possible that after a few trips into boost the case could pressurize with no way to vent, thus holding oil in the turbo cartridge causing the turbine shaft to thrust? This theory of a pressurized crank case would also explain the coking. If the oil had to sit in the hot cartridge until the case was vented it could have just sat there and baked. This would also explain the semi-serious rear main seal leak I have developed.
    I have never seen my dipstick blow out of the tube, though.
    What do you think? I now seriously think that the turbo failure (and coking) is just a symptom of a problem that I manifested through poor engineering. I just don't know yet what the root cause of all of this is.

    Any more ideas?

    -Les

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    Buy my stuff!!!!!!!!!!! :O) Turbo Mopar Vendor turbovanmanČ's Avatar
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    Re: Thrust bearing failure?

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    Oh, I installed a new stainless steel coolant/oil line kit for the turbo before this turbo went on. Also, does anyone think that I need to un-shim the BOV. I was having a problem with the BOV "shuttering" during cruising speeds. It didn't really hurt performance I guess, but it was very annoying and shimming the spring inside allowed me to get rid of that problem. Do you think the shimmed spring would cause so much delay that it could cause the turbo to thrust too hard/often?

    -Les
    If its surging at boost/cruise, that can damage it as the turbine is bouncing back and forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastasleep View Post
    How about this folks: not enough ventilation for the crankcase. Tell me if this makes sense, guys. I devised my own PCV system by reading posts and trying to come up with the best system. While putting this set-up (the current turbo that we are writing about), I installed a catch can to the mix. I did a lot of changes, too, hoping to improve my van.
    My PCV system is made up of a tube that runs from the nipple on the back of my valve cover (next to #4 injector) to one nipple on the catch can. On the outlet side (nipple #2) of the catch can, there is a tube that leads to the turbo inlet tract (cold air intake with a K&N on one side). I did not make provisions for a PCV valve using a "T" in the catch can tubing. I should have "T'd" right off of the valve cover nipple and put a PCV valve in between the nipple on the valve cover and the intake vac./boost reference point. The other side of the "T" could have remained the same as I have now (the catch can side).
    There are no vents for the crank case. My oil cap is non-vented and my catch can is non-vented. So is it possible that after a few trips into boost the case could pressurize with no way to vent, thus holding oil in the turbo cartridge causing the turbine shaft to thrust? This theory of a pressurized crank case would also explain the coking. If the oil had to sit in the hot cartridge until the case was vented it could have just sat there and baked. This would also explain the semi-serious rear main seal leak I have developed.
    I have never seen my dipstick blow out of the tube, though.
    What do you think? I now seriously think that the turbo failure (and coking) is just a symptom of a problem that I manifested through poor engineering. I just don't know yet what the root cause of all of this is.

    Any more ideas?

    -Les
    Nope, the can is vented to your intake, so your ok there, that's how alot do it, including me, keeps the stink away.


    Wow, I can't believe the coking????? Is this the same setup that's been smoking since day one? You need to check the thrust bearings, if the outer surface is speckled or damaged, its most likely dirty, if just grooved, then its an oil or balance or ? issue. It could be just one of those things that there isn't really a reason,

    I had 2 turbo's let go and I still don't know why,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

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