What does what when it comes to cam timing, please chim in

[shelbymopar89]

Or chime in, you can chim if you want, man I wish we could edit titles! Tried the search with no luck. Ok so I have a basic tune on the car right now and I would like to start to fine tune it. Thats the problem I do not know how to do it. here is what I am working with.
Block
0.040-over stock 2.2
Wiseco pistons Skirts/top coated

Cylinder Head
Done by MRPbody ported, oversized valves
Cometic Head Gasket
ARP Studs

Camshaft
FM 475
Fidanza Adj
Intake Manifold
Cut, ported one peice

Throttle Body
52mm

Turbo
Turbonetics T3/4 50 trim Stage 2 Wheel
Spearco 1080

Exhaust
F.M. Stainless 3 inch mandrel bent
T.U. 3 inch S.V.
T.U. Stainless Header (coated)

Fuel System
+40's
Walbro 255 pump
Accufab A.F.P.R.

Engine Managment

Stage 5 Cal
3 Bar Map
3 Bar progressive Devils Own Alky Inj #7 nozzel
Ignition
MSD Blaster coil
Magnacore wires

mmmmk so the car is running very nice right now, running 20lbs of boost and it feels strong. on the wideband at WOT I am seeing mid 10's, base timing is set (factory) and the cam gear is at zero. I know it is still kinda rich but I think I might be able to tune it in a little more, it does not really like it when I pull the fp back anymore, it creats a low throttle cruise stumble. I do not want to get into a whats right and whats wrong EGT argument so lets say at WOT I am reading 1550. So when I advance the timing what can I expect to see? What will happen to EGT? what happens to the boost/torque curve? will it change my A/F any? If I retard it does the direct opposite happen to each of the above mentioned? I think I will be putting it on the dyno soon and I want to know what directions to go on adjustment. What about base timing? I know it is hard to compare one set-up to another because there are soooo many different routes people take, but I would like to get a better understanding of the little adjustments that can be made and their affect on the engine. I am not looking for an all out race set-up. I am looking for a fun, pretty quick well tuned (standalone aside) engine. Thanks guys and I look forward to your input.

[puppet]

EGT's ... will go up when cam is RET ... will go down when cam is ADV'ed.

ADV'ed cam will rob peak torque/HP (depending on how far you go ... there's always exceptions and tolerance values to consider both in the cam's grind and engines timing marks.) RET the cam and pretty much the opposite will happen. Intake valves closing later will have a positive effect on the engines VE. HP/torque values will increase accordingly.

A/F ratios shouldn't change any with cam timing changes. Mileage is another matter.

Putting the set-up on the dyno is the best call. I got to say that the WOT A/F ratios you are seeing right now are really rich. I like to see them in the low 12's ... there, I said it.
Are you injecting W/A mix now? What ratio? When does it come on? This little addition is going to have a profound effect on what you wind up with as far as a workable calibration .. along with how much ignition timing it'll take. Don't know that I'd be looking to WI at the boost levels you're at right now. Might be more of a tuning headache than it's worth at the moment.

[shelbymopar89]

Thanks man, thats the kind of thing I am looking for. I think I have read where you have said 12's before, but I would be more than happy with mid 11's and some safety factor. That was also my thoughts behind the alky injection. I am using the windshield washer fluid right now, comes on at 10 and full pressure by 18lbs. Should I just pull the fuse on it then tune, get it right then plug it back in and go from there? Thanks again.

[puppet]

Just taking a general stab at what your tune method should be with the WI. I'm using a WM injection method .. it's different than the conventional way however. Don't want to go into it right now cause I'll probably be laughed off the site :P Basics are probably similar though. If you're gonna keep it you should tune with it.

The injection should allow you to add in some base ignition timing before you see knock. It should also cool the charge further allowing you to utilize more *fuel. *Catch here is that if you change over to a higher concentration of meth you'll have to calculate that as fuel and factor it in your cal as such. If not, you be adding in petrol. Cooling the charge vs cooling and having enough flow to count as fuel. Stuff has to be determined if the set-up is going to perform.

I'm not doing this so I'm not able to help with the calculations based on how much you're WI is currently flowing, or will be at a later date. I see you have a DO7 nozzle? ... close to 10gph @200psi (holy crap)? Is that right? Who sized this and based on what?

[turbovanman²]

Low 12's is safe but I aim for 11.5 to give me some room.

In one of my threads, using 50/50 will make the AF read .5 richer, so if you turn the meth off, you'd be reading low 11's.

Retarding the cam moves the power band up and can increase lag, advancing lowers the powerband so its peppier at lower rpm and will decrease lag. I used to advance it with my old 8 valve setup to spool my turbo around town. 2 degs makes a difference you can feel.

[shelbymopar89]

Just taking a general stab at what your tune method should be with the WI. I'm using a WM injection method .. it's different than the conventional way however. Don't want to go into it right now cause I'll probably be laughed off the site :P Basics are probably similar though. If you're gonna keep it you should tune with it.

The injection should allow you to add in some base ignition timing before you see knock. It should also cool the charge further allowing you to utilize more *fuel. *Catch here is that if you change over to a higher concentration of meth you'll have to calculate that as fuel and factor it in your cal as such. If not, you be adding in petrol. Cooling the charge vs cooling and having enough flow to count as fuel. Stuff has to be determined if the set-up is going to perform.

I'm not doing this so I'm not able to help with the calculations based on how much you're WI is currently flowing, or will be at a later date. I see you have a DO7 nozzle? ... close to 10gph @200psi (holy crap)? Is that right? Who sized this and based on what?

Thanks again for the input, the more the better. Sorry so long to reply as I am out of town on buisness and don't have much access. As for the size of the nozzel it is based off of devils own site (calculator) it is a 7GPH nozzel. It figures in three things to determine your nozzel size, max RPM (6500) Max boost (30) and engine displacement (2.2) it came out to 6.94gph nozzel. So thats what I put in.

Low 12's is safe but I aim for 11.5 to give me some room.

In one of my threads, using 50/50 will make the AF read .5 richer, so if you turn the meth off, you'd be reading low 11's.

Retarding the cam moves the power band up and can increase lag, advancing lowers the powerband so its peppier at lower rpm and will decrease lag. I used to advance it with my old 8 valve setup to spool my turbo around town. 2 degs makes a difference you can feel.

I am with you on the A/F the wife will kill me it I melt it down! I had never heard an actual amount in which it raised or lowered the A/F so thanks. Thanks for the info as this is the stuff I need. The more the better!

[puppet]

Thanks again for the input, the more the better. Sorry so long to reply as I am out of town on buisness and don't have much access. As for the size of the nozzel it is based off of devils own site (calculator) it is a 7GPH nozzel. It figures in three things to determine your nozzel size, max RPM (6500) Max boost (30) and engine displacement (2.2) it came out to 6.94gph nozzel. So thats what I put in.

If I'm not mistaken, WI is supposed to be 10-15% of fuel consumption. Don't see that talked about in the calculations you posted. ... and if you're tuning to 20psi boost why input 30psi boost as a parameter for the WI nozzle sizing? Just wondering if you've gone too big?

[contraption22]

If I'm not mistaken, WI is supposed to be 10-15% of fuel consumption. Don't see that talked about in the calculations you posted. ... and if you're tuning to 20psi boost why input 30psi boost as a parameter for the WI nozzle sizing? Just wondering if you've gone too big?

Devil's Own kits are boost-dependant output... so you choose nozzle size based on max boost, but the controller will vary the output based on manifold pressure.

[turbovanman²]

Devil's Own kits are boost-dependant output... so you choose nozzle size based on max boost, but the controller will vary the output based on manifold pressure.

Its adjusted by you, so you can set what boost it comes on and then it gradually increases the alky to your preset full boost level, its progressive, works very nicely.

[puppet]

Devil's Own kits are boost-dependant output... so you choose nozzle size based on max boost, but the controller will vary the output based on manifold pressure.

So their nozzle rating is max output. Won't a too large nozzle perform atomization poorly at reduced output? Doesn't matter choosing a nozzle based on 30psi and only running it to 20psi?

[contraption22]

So their nozzle rating is max output. Won't a too large nozzle perform atomization poorly at reduced output? Doesn't matter choosing a nozzle based on 30psi and only running it to 20psi?

Not really. It's a pulswidth modulated system and it operates over 100psi.

[shelbymopar89]

All good infor to know, thanks guys. I was running 27lbs thats why the 30 was used. When I drove it 3000+ miles to Mopar Nats I turned the boost down to prevent me from doing too stupid. I understood it to work the same way as mentioned above so was not worried about the nozzel size with less boost. I also wanted to get it tuned in better before running that much boost again, but it was still my target. Thanks again guys for the input.