Water/Alcohol Injection with N20

[contraption22]

http://www.dragracermag.com/content/view/86/30/

Nitrous Knowledge: Presented by Nitrous Supply
Tech Tips from the Innovator of Nitrous Oxide Injection


Written by Mike Thermos
Making More Power with Water?

"How compatible are nitrous oxide and water injection?" That is currently the most asked question on the Nitrous Supply tech line. Because of that, I'm dedicating this month's entire column to nitrous and water injection.

For starters, nitrous oxide injection and water injection are very compatible because one enhances and complements the other. In fact, the addition of water injection to your nitrous setup is currently the most logical, most efficient, most economical solution to improved nitrous efficiencies, eventually leading to increased power.

Based on my more than 25 years of experience in researching, developing and perfecting nitrous oxide injection it is a proven fact that only "things" that burn can produce horsepower - "things" that don't burn do not make horsepower. So, the obvious question here is, "How can adding a water-injection system to my nitrous setup make any additional horsepower as water does not burn?" Very true! But, a water injection unit does create improved efficiencies that, ultimately, help your nitrous system produce additional power. Basically, here is the way it works: To make more horsepower we know we have to burn more fuel, so we introduce more fuel into the engine. But, to burn the additional fuel you need to bring in more nitrous. More nitrous comes from the simple installation of bigger jets. But, by burning more fuel, cylinder pressure increases dramatically, while also creating much more heat. With more heat in the cylinder the need arises to get rid of it before it starts to cause detonation of the fuel and/or before it soaks into all of the major components, like the heads, the block and the pistons. An engine gets rid of its heat by transferring heat through the heads, block and pistons into the water jackets and, ultimately, into the radiator. However, most of the heat is dispersed through the exhaust. Consequently, it makes logical sense to introduce something into the engine that will become part of the exhaust process and dissipate heat quickly. That "something" is water injected into an engine by an efficient water-injection unit.

For more on water injection and its compatibility with nitrous oxide, I've enlisted the expertise of Matt Snow of Snow Performance. Snow Performance is currently recognized as the leader in water-injection technology and specializes in producing high quality, power efficient, water-methanol injection systems. According to Matt Snow, the biggest benefit of combining water-methanol injection with nitrous oxide is you can run full timing with increased amounts of nitrous and not have to worry about "hot pockets" or detonation. Water-methanol injection can also increase engine efficiencies in terms of miles per gallon, in addition to producing more power. According to Matt, water-methanol injection and nitrous oxide are the perfect 1-2 combination for producing additional, efficient horsepower. When water-methanol injection is combined with nitrous oxide more fuel can be burned, more nitrous can be used, and more power is created. While detonation is minimized, timing does not have to be retarded, combustion is slowed down (similar to the effect of using high-octane fuel) and cylinder pressure and heat are controlled. Basically, with a Snow water-methanol injection system your nitrous setup will become much more efficient, while ultimately, producing much more power.

So, the answer is, yes, water injection is very compatible with nitrous oxide and should be combined with any/all nitrous setups for the ultimate in efficient power gains.

For more information on nitrous and water injection, call the NS Tech Line at (714) 373-1986, visit www.nitroussupply.com, or call Snow Performance at (719) 633-3811, and check out www.snowperformance.net. DR

[gvare001]

What would be the best way to deliver a combination of H2O NO2?

[R/Tony]

How much N2O can I safely spray with my setup : 2.5, 8v head, Holset @ 30psi, W/I from 15psi to 30psi, 92octane, FWD-P Stage 5 cal.

[contraption22]

How much N2O can I safely spray with my setup : 2.5, 8v head, Holset @ 30psi, W/I from 15psi to 30psi, 92octane, FWD-P Stage 5 cal.

I really don't think there is an accurate way to say "here is how much nitrous you can run". But... I will say start small and slowly jet up.

[SUPER60omni]

Hahaha...... hence my 8valver breaking the 500hp mark with N20 and W/Meth. It made 157HP from a 65 shot jetted 2 sizes larger on the fuel. And people still dont belive it. ;p

[Dave]

What would be the best way to deliver a combination of H2O NO2?

You put it all in the "business pipe."



I've never been a fan of injecting 'just water.' Lowering IATs should be done by proper compressor selection, piping size, and intercooler configurations. Also you can cool it down with a bit more fuel and alcohol in itself burns cooler than regular gasoline.

When you start injecting nitrous too it, there's no reason to be injecting a chemical that does not combust. Nitrous will cool it down plenty.

Just my thoughts on it.

[t3rse]

Also you can cool it down with a bit more fuel and alcohol in itself burns cooler than regular gasoline.

Which is the WRONG approach to cooling the charge and gaining power...

[puppet]

, there's no reason to be injecting a chemical that does not combust.

Just my thoughts on it.

Like said above ... this is essentially what you're doing with the fuel. Water cools much better than extra fuel.

[contraption22]

Yeah, I think my DO injection is comming off the car, as it runs consistently better without it. I am gonna save the kit to put on my Acclaim if and when I turbocharge it. It likely will not be getting an intercooler right away, and i'd like to be able to run it on 87 octane.

[mario03SRT]

The Rule of Thumb is add 10%-15% of fuel comsumption.........

["Top Fuel" Bender]

What would be the best way to deliver a combination of H2O NO2?

You could by one of my throttle body flanges
drill and tap the flange for the H20
some have run the NO2 in the intake without issues, but NOS says to run the nozzle 6-12 before the throttle body

TFB Fabrications

[Dave]

Which is the WRONG approach to cooling the charge and gaining power...

Fuel makes power in a correct mixture. If you're already at say 11.5:1 and your charge is still too hot, you didnt do your homework.

[Dave]

Like said above ... this is essentially what you're doing with the fuel. Water cools much better than extra fuel.

Right, alcohol burns much cooler to. I've seen so many pros running straight alcohol with no intercooler and very cool EGTs.

[t3rse]

Fuel makes power in a correct mixture. If you're already at say 11.5:1 and your charge is still too hot, you didnt do your homework.

I think I finally understand what you were attempting to say...I thought you were saying to add fuel to cool the charge, but you were saying that one should use alchy or a mixture thereof of water, and not water alone for chemical intercooling...

But good job stating the obvious.

[Dave]

But good job stating the obvious.

Yup.

[zin]

How much N2O can I safely spray with my setup : 2.5, 8v head, Holset @ 30psi, W/I from 15psi to 30psi, 92octane, FWD-P Stage 5 cal.

That is probably THE most asked question we'd get on the NOS tech line!

It's also the ONE question we could never answer accurately, just isn't possible. Well, at least not without blowing up a few engines first!

BTW, Quad 4s DO NOT LIKE a jet bigger than a 36! (50-70hp)... They like to chunk pistons!

Seriously though, the amount of HP you can do has everything to do with how strong the bottom end is built and how good the machine work is. In the end, you have to decide what the weakest link in the engine is and try to stay below it's breaking point, if you have to push that hard in the first place. Seems like the 1st weak link is cylinder head sealing, followed by cast pistons, with the rods a close second. The crank and block aren't normally a problem until very high outputs. The head sealing issue is not a very common problem on other engines, small block Fords being another exception...

What would be the best way to deliver a combination of H2O NO2?

Ideally, for both nitrous and H2O you'd inject it in each port ensuring an even mix, but most just put it in ahead of the throttle body...

It is also important to note that the H2O is being used to stave off detonation/preignition; we tend to add quite a bit of "extra" fuel when setting jetting in the kits we sell, mostly to ensure no melt-downs, but even then some of the "extra" fuel is being used as a coolant/heat-sink inside the combustion chamber. When water injection is used, the system might need to have the fuel jet reduced a bit as water does this job MUCH better than fuel. Where water injection really shines is with pump gas, the cooling effect allows much higher cylinder pressure levels before detonation occurs.

All this being said, if you have a fuel that isn't in danger of allowing these conditions, the H2O/Alky might not show an improvement.

Hope this is more helpful than confusing!

Mike

[contraption22]

That is probably THE most asked question we'd get on the NOS tech line!

It's also the ONE question we could never answer accurately, just isn't possible. Well, at least not without blowing up a few engines first!

BTW, Quad 4s DO NOT LIKE a jet bigger than a 36! (50-70hp)... They like to chunk pistons!

Seriously though, the amount of HP you can do has everything to do with how strong the bottom end is built and how good the machine work is. In the end, you have to decide what the weakest link in the engine is and try to stay below it's breaking point, if you have to push that hard in the first place. Seems like the 1st weak link is cylinder head sealing, followed by cast pistons, with the rods a close second. The crank and block aren't normally a problem until very high outputs. The head sealing issue is not a very common problem on other engines, small block Fords being another exception...



Ideally, for both nitrous and H2O you'd inject it in each port ensuring an even mix, but most just put it in ahead of the throttle body...

It is also important to note that the H2O is being used to stave off detonation/preignition; we tend to add quite a bit of "extra" fuel when setting jetting in the kits we sell, mostly to ensure no melt-downs, but even then some of the "extra" fuel is being used as a coolant/heat-sink inside the combustion chamber. When water injection is used, the system might need to have the fuel jet reduced a bit as water does this job MUCH better than fuel. Where water injection really shines is with pump gas, the cooling effect allows much higher cylinder pressure levels before detonation occurs.

All this being said, if you have a fuel that isn't in danger of allowing these conditions, the H2O/Alky might not show an improvement.

Hope this is more helpful than confusing!

Mike

Thanks, Mike. This is right in with what I have found.

With N20 and race gas, there is no need for H20/Alky.

[zin]

Thanks, Mike. This is right in with what I have found.

With N20 and race gas, there is no need for H20/Alky.

So true!

That said, I am working with a couple of racers trying out H2O injection on their full-on racecars. It remains to be seen if my theory of "more stuff" in the cylinder translates to more HP and more consistency. Damn racers can't stop "tweaking" things and keep tainting the data!

Mike