i dont doubt you nathan. i just was curious.
i have a little LED test light that came with my wifes remote starter i put on her neon. i used that to test my friends MS cause its easy to see the pulsing when you turn map and rpm down real low with the stimulator. i know its a little late now and brent is using the MS and probably wont dig further but i bet with a little more digging around, the problem could be found but its no big deal.
Brent, how did the valve springs like high RPM?
Brian
Here is a 3.0L timing map for the MS that i came up with based on the stock 3.0L 89 SMEC timing with some tweaks that you could see in those images i posted up previously in the thread. i took into account the factory table AdvanceFromRpmMAX to limit the advance in the upper rpms. this table mainly limited advance in the high rpms at high vacuum.
Brent, i see that your timing map doesnt change after 4000 with respect to RPM. you should have some advance increase as the rpms rise as the physical time for combustion decreases.
id use the map that i made as it is the same as the factory map except for the tweaks i made for power and the reduction of advance in boost. it should be pretty safe and will allow you to push the envelope with less chances of nuking the engine due to timing.
Brian
Just like taking it all in and cheering on the 3.0 guys!Living the dream I always knew to be true! Brings a tear to my eye...just wish I could be more of a part of it all!
Is that timing added to the base time or for TDC?Originally Posted by Aries_Turbo
Here is a 3.0L timing map for the MS that i came up with based on the stock 3.0L 89 SMEC timing with some tweaks that you could see in those images i posted up previously in the thread. i took into account the factory table AdvanceFromRpmMAX to limit the advance in the upper rpms. this table mainly limited advance in the high rpms at high vacuum.
Brent, i see that your timing map doesnt change after 4000 with respect to RPM. you should have some advance increase as the rpms rise as the physical time for combustion decreases.
id use the map that i made as it is the same as the factory map except for the tweaks i made for power and the reduction of advance in boost. it should be pretty safe and will allow you to push the envelope with less chances of nuking the engine due to timing.
Brian
I know I can pick up timing in the higher rpms but right now I want to keep getting work on the VE's and feeling out the car.
I am NOT tuning for power right now, I am probably going to take the drag radials off cause they drive me crazy from the fact that they don't like to let go at the same time so they take the car side to side as they trade off traction.
Honestly I am scared and i am sorta glad my water pump seems to have almost completely seized. 200k miles on the motor, something had to fail :P
I am honestly scared now because the doors are so wide open. Grab some 96# injectors, run 40 pounds of boost, kill myself in a ball of flames or 150mph rollover, or take things really really slow! With EGO correction there is nothing really stopping me from cranking the boost controller and running to wherever my injectors and Meth system runs out of steam. I figure thats around 550-600hp depending on how much base fuel pressure I run. Since I removed the RRR I can't make as much power on my injectors.
I won't start adding Meth until 15-17psi territory but I am already scared to get near there.
Car has been hard to start the last few days and I thought it was MS but I guess it was the waterpump bearings geeking out. When I did a slow 3000 to 6000 rpm pull up a hill (part throttle to help autotune non boost tables) I think all those rpms including the foot stop I did from 6000 to 6650 did the bearings in completely. I barely made it up the hill after I realized 5th gear was bogging down. I figured a piston blew somehow but the plugs came out clean and cam timing was still on. Glad it didnt wreck my nice valves.
I am excited to try some higher rpms but also scared of the consequences. I don't know if i will even be able to tell on the street of the lifters collapse or valves float. When in boost things happen so fast. I think I might be able to rev to 7500 on these 3000 mile stock valve springs because my valves are about 15% lighter then stock (even though they are oversize). Not really sure though. Nathan has had problems at only 6000! Maybe his springs are just junk. He grabbed some Starion springs that I told him about.
I will rev to 8k if I can get away with it on Starion springs and possibly titanium retainers if they will fit. I want to see what the powerband looks like up there. The car is crazy with the cams straight up as my cam grinder meant them to be. They have not been straight up since I ran 107mph on stock intake manifold and 5psi boost on drag radials. Ever since then I have been worrying about widening the powerband because of the between shift bog slicks can create.
Oh, and brian's map there he made for me is not including my base 12 degrees.
right... that is only the electronic advance.
my only power mod is to remove the dip that the stock ecu had near the torque peak because the engine was rated for 87 octane and had no knock detection.
I also added a little bit of timing (a degree or two) above the stock redline as youll be revving the engine higher than that.
other than that, i made it pretty conservative.
brian
oh btw... isnt having full control of the engine management fun?
Brian
Brent it is time to bite the bullet , save up and install a full cage . It's going to save your but and strengthen you car helping to take some of the flex out (better handling and launches).
I just don't want to see you get hurt or worse!
I agree with this! I also think that you seriously need to practice loading the car with the brakes if you are determined to tune on the street. It is crazy and dangerous to tune at those speeds on the street. Load the car where you want to test and do it at lower speeds = MUCH safer.
It's either that or tune at the track or dyno. Running the car up through the gears on the street when it is making that much power is insane. I hate to think about the consequences.
No, dont put a cage in that car! Put one in the rust-free one you'll be getting from me
You know you're coming up to the point where this engine will need to go into a body worth modding for AWD....
Dont push the red button.You hear me?
Brent, you probably should buy a cheap set of pads and rotors (or grab used spares for free) and tune like Reaper said. use 3rd gear and hammer the brakes and the gas at the same time so you can load the engine fully using the brakes. maybe second if the speed gets too fast.
that way, the engine acceleration can be slowed down in boost to allow the autotune to correct more accurately and you can get the combustion temps/EGTs high enough to stabilize where you can find out if you need more or less timing in a given area.
im going to try to get back to my knock box project soon as another resource that you can use to tune with. either that or get a bosch sensor and hook it up to headphones like DJ did to hear knock.
it is a little scary when you now have the control and you start to push it higher and higher.
go slow though. 1 psi at a time and start as low as you can go.
Brian
The car unfortunately has a a stiffer spring in the tial 38 now so I cant go less then 9 something psi boost.
I need to redo the headgaskets because these OEM MLS had crap between the layers and spits out water and oil into the block valley.
With the powersteering run dry its extra scary as I am used to being able to keep the car straight with just a little arm wiggle. Need to fix the damage I did to the pump trying to straighten out the bracket it attaches to. The bracket got a bit weaker making room for the Mitsu oil filter and I sorta dropped the engine onto the bracket while the PS was still attached.....uhhhh :P
I will say this, the MS almost makes the car feel "new" because I have gone from running 11.5@125 on no technology, no tune, no map sensor understanding what boost is, to having complete control of....everything, and even having a computer that will automatically correct fueling issues until I get the VE maps sorted, and even then can be set to always run closed loop.
It reminds me of driving my dads 2009 corolla (his first new car, not a clunker program purchase either) except is has...boatloads of power. The whole feeling of the car is different. Not physical feeling, but the emotional stuff. I don't know how to describe it. Driving along while being connected to the motor in a way that is deeper then a gas pedal and clutch.
The car unfortunately has a a stiffer spring in the tial 38 now so I cant go less then 9 something psi boost.
I need to redo the headgaskets because these OEM MLS had crap between the layers and spits out water and oil into the block valley.
With the powersteering run dry its extra scary as I am used to being able to keep the car straight with just a little arm wiggle. Need to fix the damage I did to the pump trying to straighten out the bracket it attaches to. The bracket got a bit weaker making room for the Mitsu oil filter and I sorta dropped the engine onto the bracket while the PS was still attached.....uhhhh :P
I will say this, the MS almost makes the car feel "new" because I have gone from running 11.5@125 on no technology, no tune, no map sensor understanding what boost is, to having complete control of....everything, and even having a computer that will automatically correct fueling issues until I get the VE maps sorted, and even then can be set to always run closed loop.
It reminds me of driving my dads 2009 corolla (his first new car, not a clunker program purchase either) except this has...boatloads of power even with things turned all the way down. It feels like a new car. The whole feeling of the car is different. Not physical feeling, but the emotional stuff. I don't know how to describe it. Driving along while being connected to the motor in a way that is deeper then a gas pedal and clutch.
A way to describe it is maybe the difference between riding a horse and whipping its rear end hoping to get it to do what you want, compared with whispering in your horse's ear and having it precisely follow your commands.
I enjoyed just feeling the difference between keeping up with a bullet bike while missing 13 degrees of timing...to changing the timing to where i wanted it and all of a sudden deciding I didn't want to go full throttle anymore
If I can get the valvetrain to hold together, I am really excited to see what the powerband will be like as I test the RPM limits of my heads.
Last edited by Ondonti; 10-13-2009 at 08:27 AM.
Apparently all that timing plus 10:1 compression pounded out the center main bearngs, and when the motor suffered a little oil starvation up a hill (exhaust evac prevented heads from draining back into crankcase etc) the already damaged center mains decided to start seizing up. Forged crank 6g72's have this problem around 850AWHP so apparently the cast crank is a lot more sensitive. Just have to avoid detonation, which Megasquirt allows through full timing control.
Just going to polish the main journals and pop in a different set of main bearings (fix has worked for professional 6g72 builders).
Well, thats a HUGE bummer. i mean if you consider how much those bearings were as a percentage of a $90 motor i think you probly lost about $7 to $8 by trashing them, not to mention anothe $15 or so just to buy new ones! I dont know how you can afford to keep breaking that kinda stuff!!
Dont push the red button.You hear me?
I agree, we just had some ahole doing 200 km/h or so they speculate in his Bimmer down a main road, cut a Minivan in half, he survived of course and killed 3 in the van.I agree with this! I also think that you seriously need to practice loading the car with the brakes if you are determined to tune on the street. It is crazy and dangerous to tune at those speeds on the street. Load the car where you want to test and do it at lower speeds = MUCH safer.
It's either that or tune at the track or dyno. Running the car up through the gears on the street when it is making that much power is insane. I hate to think about the consequences.
Great job on the car and i agree with bakes, get a cage installed.
1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS!
1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.
Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info
Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info
They are about $10 EACH to replace since I am not a machine shop. I am just going to take the mains from one of the other motors I have...as long as this crankshaft has not been turned before. If so.Well, thats a HUGE bummer. i mean if you consider how much those bearings were as a percentage of a $90 motor i think you probly lost about $7 to $8 by trashing them, not to mention anothe $15 or so just to buy new ones! I dont know how you can afford to keep breaking that kinda stuff!!
SpeedyEd on TD pointed me towards http://www.felpro-only.com/tec_notes..._3.0L_SOHC.pdf
And I am gonna try these gaskets. Its pretty much what I am already doing. DSM guys are recently liking composite gaskets. The used OEM MLS have an oil and slight coolant leak into the valley of the block (probably dirt between one of the layers, the one reason why reusing a "good" gasket can be sketchy). I didnt take good care of the gaskets because I had orignally not planned on using them. I think my headgaskets should seal better as long as I keep detonation at bay. So here goes $40 for new headgaskets. I have to buy 2. The first expense I have made on these motors besides purchase price
That's an interesting write-up from Fel-Pro. Thanks for posing that!
Talked to Ray Pampena on the phone. Going to polish the main journals and pop in a different set of used bearings. He also taught me a cool trick to pop out the main bearings while the motor is installed. Put a low profile machine screw in the oil feed hole of the main journal and it will pop out the bearing as you turn the crank. I already got mine out but I will be remembering this one.
Probably going to replace the headgaskets with the felpros cause leaking 1 quart of oil every 25 miles makes the car worrisome.
Clean oil pan and check for crap in the bottome end. Then install my oil filter relocation kit. The tiny mitsu filter had about 1-2mm of clearance but its obviously come in contact with the axle many times as there is a little wear spot on the filter............the filter was also the same one that it had at the junkyard :P
Then the most annoying thing, figure out how to repair the PS pump. Pretty sure I destroyed one of the O rings when prying on the pump housing (thought it was misaligned but it was actually loose...DOH!).
I would like to get to a car show next thats coming up in a week or 2.
I still need to learn how to utilize a modified .ini file in MS. The autotune limitations are too restrictive, It cuts off at 4000 rpms, and at anything more then 4" of vacuum (aka it won't learn in boost!).
I was able to modify the .ini file to what I want but I couldn't figure out how to actually use that modified file.
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