10 second 190,000 mile low boost 3.0 build

[turbovanman²]

Never heard of him? 35psi on cast is crazy! Links to info?

Gasketmaster is his name and he has the 11 sec Minivan.

[Ondonti]

The tach driver is very easy to build and was the only thing that worked dependibly for me. There should be no issues running the stock tach with the driver in place.

i have msII but no "extra" so I don't know what to do about driving the tach. I like my stock tach and don't really like the idea of adding a gauge. The stock tach does read to 7k and it can move all the way to a "pretend" 9k but I don't know if it will get stuck up there. Mine have always been accurate.

For short term tuning purposes maybe the 12 dollar junk tach would work but I want to get the stock tach working

[Aries_Turbo]

have you started laying out your breakpoints (X and Y axis points) on the ms2? can i get a screenshot?

im working on a decent timing map that will take out the blips and dips in the stock curves and will have some decent safe estimation for boost up to 29psi. of course youll want to hook up something to listen to knock and slowly raise the boost and set the curves for what you can run max.

will you still have the distributor set at 12deg static?

these may not make sense but here are some screenshots of what im coming up with. the stock computer looks at the RPM value and comes up with a timing value based on AdvanceFromRPM. then it looks at the MAP value (ie vac or boost) and then comes up with a timing value based on AdvanceFromMapWarm (either part or full throttle... since im making up stuff, im only worried about one table and part is the one im using... for the S60 the part and full throttle MAP table is the same) then it adds the timing values together. if its in boost it typically subtracts timing from the RPM table value.

the blue line is the values that im coming up with that i think will work well.

the black lines are the stock values or the S60 values for comparison.

My Values vs 3.0L Map Values. Note... the stock is correct in relation to the blue line... the stock is a 1-bar table and the one im making is a 3-bar so the 1 bar values get scrunched to their proper location.


My Values vs 3.0L RPM Values


My Values vs S60 MAP Values


My Values vs S60 RPM Values


Brian

[Aries_Turbo]

Ok, well im not trying to teach anyone anything about 8vs, just making a point, so we're both right. If reeves and larryB WERENT makling more than 440 and noone ever had, we wouldnt really know that they COULD take more and everyone would start buying expensive rods at 400whp just because one person blew them up and word got around. So luckily someone else did it for us so we dont go off wasting our money on things we dont need.

hell, i sure wasnt going to buy $$$ rods. ive seen inside alot of engines and i knew the T2 ones are beefy.

plus gary said "it was the defective ARP rod bolts fault".

also, ive seen built BEEFY engines die because of crap tuning.

add that all up and the end result is: Keep pushing stock t2 rods.

Brian

[turbovanman²]

Nice pics Brian, close to my curves too, I am glad you posted up the S60 tables as they are slightly different in my Dcal, maybe you rescaled them?

Can you send me that/your S60 cal please,

FYI, Reeves is now running aluminium rods,

[Ondonti]

Working on my headgaskets now. I have some really cool pictures of what happened to the cometic gaskets. i actually blew out 3 cylinders, 1 just barely leaked.
The cometics are junk so I am reusing the MLS headgaskets that came on the diamante motor. Did some tests with a vice and the .014" wire crushes to .005" (between two pieces of a cut up worm gear clamp, same as it crushes under the headgasket) and the .022" wire I am using now crushes to .007 and seems a bit more robust.
One problem with the copper wire on the Cometic was that It was installed slight outside the fire ring so it didn't have anything to hold it in place. The current wire is being installed just before the fire ring so hopefully it stays put and doesnt push out the other direction either.

Read about 400 posts in the TD 3.0 quarry last night, tracked down M90daytona, and found that his tach was working and how he did it
Maybe this doesnt work for TD guys but for 3.0's it does as long as you keep the stock ecu.
480ohm resistor on the signal wire that goes to the MS (from the dist) prevents the MS from hogging all the signal (i think) and allows the tach to work
1k resistor makes both fail.

He has a job again and is busy with "work" but I don't know if he still has his car. He tried to sell it on ebay last june.

[Ondonti]

"oringed" heads installed. This time I torqued the stock bolts to 95ft/lb (stock turbo spec is 90).

I am not really excited to have it running again because I don't really want to deal with tuning it. Its so loud that just idling makes me feel like a prick.

[Ondonti]

Megasquirt is officially tuning itself. All my tables are scaled to what I want them and rebuilt to my desires. AFR target table is allowing megasquirt to slowly change the VE tables in order to match my AFR targets.

Still some things to learn more about but for now this is pretty exciting.

Big problem on first long test drive was that we apparently bent the motor bracket that the PS pump attaches to so the pulley is not lining up. We threw the serp belt when we pulled over to mess with the idle speed.

Going to try to take a nap and try to massage that a bit so we can drive to the Utah TD meet tomorrow.

[Ondonti]

Megasquirt is officially tuning itself. All my tables are scaled to what I want them and rebuilt to my desires. AFR target table is allowing megasquirt to slowly change the VE tables in order to match my AFR targets.

Still some things to learn more about but for now this is pretty exciting.

Big problem on first long test drive was that we apparently bent the motor bracket that the PS pump attaches to so the pulley is not lining up. We threw the serp belt when we pulled over to mess with the idle speed.

Going to try to take a nap and try to massage that a bit so we can drive to the Utah TD meet tomorrow.

[Aries_Turbo]

congrats. i love auto-tune.

what does your timing map look like?

Brian

[DodgeZ]

if you hold down ALT and hit print screen it will take the picture of just the active window. also vista search for "snipping tool". That you dont have to screen shot your whole screen.

[turbovanman²]

Awesome,

Anymore drag racing left?

MS can self learn, neato,

[Ondonti]

if you hold down ALT and hit print screen it will take the picture of just the active window. also vista search for "snipping tool". That you dont have to screen shot your whole screen.

Case for the PS pump seems to be broken after I pryed it back into place to keep it from throwing belts.....oh well, I don't really care. What bad can happen to it when it runs dry besides noise? Leaking too fast to keep putting fluid in.

Snipping tool sounds cool. What is vista search? My laptop has vista. The Alt key thing helps. I hate cutting and pasting in paint to a new image file. Saved me 30 seconds now
Guessing snipping tool can take anything I put a box around?


I made this chart in about an hour. I based the 322 kpa (about 32psi) high rpm advance on #'s I got from 3000gt guys. Chris Hill is making 750/750 on 24 degrees timing (4 valve head needs less timing) on 30psi, E85 (now E98).

Remember My timing is the picture plus 12 degrees base timing.


Still way lean in boost so at the Utah Shelby meet I added 20% across the board in all VE squares that are "in boost"
TPS is WAY messed up. I don't know how Nathan drives his car with the TPS settings like this. If I hit the throttle it floods. I need to fix it. makes it hard to keep the car running if it bogs on fuel cause hitting the throttle just dumps more fuel.

3 people in the car on the way home and 9psi and we raced a big Yamaha bullet bike who couldnt stop looking. Stayed right with him even with some rich misfire. I didnt even get above 5500 rpms! Short shifted and let off the throttle so the TPS flooded the motor when I got back on it, didnt matter because a car was coming up. Thumbs up between participants. Just a roll race where I was not even in the right gear. Raced him in 3rd gear at 40mph.

Still have not gotten above 6200 rpms. Limiter set at 7000 Expecting the valves to float with my big cams and "new" stock valve springs. Need some Starion springs like I talked Nathan into buying!

BTW my cam gears are straight up now (no more 4 degree advance) and I want to enjoy them or see what fails in the valvetrain

I think I have learned enough in my previous E85 experiment to feel pretty good about the timing as far as safety vs power goes. I was running 38 degrees total timing on E85 even at 22 psi boost (and did 446whp on 4 cylinders at 19psi) but I think that there was way too much timing even with my octane.
To get an idea of how much timing I ran on my built shortblock, 7:1 compression, 22 degrees base timing, 26 degrees advance. 48 degrees total timing! That ended up making 516whp on 91 octane + meth. I didnt really have timing control and we were fighting spark blowout so I stupidly advanced the timing out of 'excitment' though 48 degrees of timing didnt make more power then 44 degrees (it originally was 18 base timing).
The only thing that helped power was leaning it out a bit. 44 vs 48 degrees made the same power (502-504).

The problem was that it looked like we gained slight peak power from more timing but it was actually spark blowout causing a shaky graph.
Dropped the plug gap and it made a smooth pull! Didn't figure out what I "should have done" until later looking at the datalogs and dyno sheets.

If I had realized at first that it was spark blowout (and not have forgotten I advanced the timing) I would not have added timing. When you have excess octane, you can normally run a couple degrees more timing then optimal without detonation, HP just won't increase or may even drop. Low octane setups often detonate before optimum timing is reached.

Therefore when tuning on the dyno, the moment HP stops increasing (assuming no knock) consider dialing the timing back unless you are really certain of your knock prevention. One cool thing is that MS has 0.1 timing increments. My friend has seen 40whp from a few tenths of a degree of timing in the Supra world.

Of course I can't really expect anything like that nor can i afford hours of dyno time to maximize power.

[Aries_Turbo]

you using a 4 bar map?

Brian

[Ondonti]

Yes. I decided to stop scaling after 355 kpa :P

The TPS is giving me fits. I need to read up on it. I think its adding up to 15 ms pulsewidths of fuel! i just don't really know how it works yet or why Nathan set it up this way or if he never really tried to make it run better. The moment I tap the gas in a quick manner it pegs the wideband, even if I don't give it much throttle angle. Just the act of quickly moving the throttle bogs things out. Makes it hard to keep it running if it stalls cause jabbing the gas floods it.

[Ondonti]

And yes, I call ------- on the man who could have had fully cracked calibrations for EVERY TD 10 years ago, already had a real job and was doing a side business that didnt work out.....and then years later still holds onto the things that make people slaves to him.

Me, I could try to profit from my hobby or help others. I know what makes me feel better inside. A man that lies and tells people he shifts at 5000 rpms when he has barely gotten into his powerband and himself complained about all his high rpm motor failures (like the dyno pull that nuked his last engine). The guy thats tells everyone to run 'stock everything, its the fastest" while he throws away all the stock parts or modifies them (because they obviously are not the "fastest" stock) but never really talks about that fact!
I know what makes him happy, having people look up to him. Me, I like helping people. Thats why I make bansheenut sit and watch me build tables for MS and do other things so he will understand how to do it himself when the time comes. Thats how I treat everyone who has a willing mind and a good heart.

Hit 6700 rpms tonight and after fixing timing table that somehow uploaded using the wrong RPM/MAP bins, car breaks 3rd gear drag radials loose at 5000+ rpms on 9psi.

Did some auto tuning. Going to be hard to autotune the boosted spots because I never stay at that rpm for long. Going to have to change somethings. The car is almost always decelling which also makes autotune hard to use. Also hard to stay close to cell points so I am thinking about increasing the radius of the autotune correction.


The "bad" table upload bothers me a bit. Not sure why that happened. The table I posted above loaded to the MSII with the RPM and MAP range all stock n/a 3.0 stuff....so it was running 15 degrees retarded timing at WOT out of boost!!!!!!!!!! Still ran good, just probably 50+whp short on power.

[ohiorob]

never knew the 3.0 had so much potential. looking foreword to that 10 second run.

[Shadow24]

whats your MAP/TPS throttle enrich bias? nathan and i are running 90% MAP based enrich. also, what sort of numbers do you have in the cells for accel enrich? i initially put WAY to high numbers and would flood the motor on tip-in. now tip-in rev response is great. see the screenshot below.

[nmw2006]

Yeah sounds to me like something is backwards with your accel enrichment. Mine works perfectly fine, slight tip-in adds something like 0.5ms of pulsewidth for less than half a second and smashing the gas gives like 1.5ms of extra fuel. This amount also varies on how fast/hard you stomp it hence the graph of rate of change/amount of fuel added.

All you need to do is to either increase the rates of kpa/sec or to decrease the amount of fuel it adds with the current accel rate.

From what I have found my TPS signal is noisy so I use 90% map based accel enrichment and only 10% TPS based vs. using more or all TPS based.

[nmw2006]

Also for some answers to all of Ondonti's MS issues/questions with my work on it....

Most of our correspondence about what I did to it was via PMs, he is free to post them.

But anyhow, I actually ended up re-soldering about half of the board because whoever built it had some really shoddy skills. (I apologize if it was you.)

When I tested the output from the processor, it seemed to be working fine, so I changed the U4 FET driver. I also changed the U3 and U7 since they came with the IC package I ordered. However this did not change anything, so I traced the signal to the actual output transistors(Q16 - VB921). Did not seem to be getting any signal through these so i changed first Q16 (the high current IC driver) then all of (Q1,Q3,Q5,Q9,Q11,Q12) just to make sure nothing was fried during initial build-up. I also later changed the small transistors for the same reason (Q2,Q4,Q10,Q13,Q14,Q15,Q19,Q20). After all this I was ready to throw the thing through my kitchen window but decided against that. I ended up tracing, checking all the components, and re-soldering the whole output sections of the board just to make sure there was not a problem externally.

Anyhow, long story short, I concluded that the actual MS board is internally shorted or a trace burnt because all of the components have been either checked or replaced. It should not be a problem with the MS processor or the U4 FET due to the fact the the #2 driver works fine.

At this point (After many, many hours of fighting with it) I sent it back to Brent and told him his best option was to simply run one injector driver or to send it to a vendor/get a new one. He sent me one of his old turbos as payment for the parts I bought and the hours I put into trying to fix it.

I also loaded it up with the code that I was using at the time (MSII rev 2.888 i believe) which ran my car perfectly N/A and told him he would have to change the maps to use it under boost.

Hope this clears up my involvement in the project as many people seem to be wondering what the heck I did to it.