10 second 190,000 mile low boost 3.0 build

[Ondonti]

Been needing to replace the battery for a few years but after looking at prices (Motobatt has almost doubled in price since 2010 and seems to pull a premium compared to the PC680's etc) and function, I have wanted to go with a more radical setup. This meant I really had to implement the momentary switch circuit for my heavy phantom draw solenoid.

Didn't want to sleep tonight before finishing (I work till 6 AM on weekdays anyways) so I could get this problem off my back and feel confident ordering my new battery.

Now, I can turn the key on, nothing happens, hit the momentary switch next to the key, systems/fuel pumps fire up and everything is GO. Turn off the key and everything shuts down.
All I really did is add a switched power activated relay in the middle of my kill switch ground. Then, my momentary switch is a temporary ground for the 100amp solenoid. Hit the button and I gain switched power and then the relay takes charge of continuing the ground path to the rear switch. Interestingly, this means you can shut off my car with the kill switch in back but I can power up my systems if I hold down that momentary switch constantly (not to easy to drive a 5 speed like that). I didn't want to ground my momentary switch to the kill switch for a "just in case" type situation....and less wiring.

[Ondonti]

Performed idle stepper motor tests with the AIS removed so I could see it. The pintle shot out (they have springs) when it traveled too far out. Apparently I had taken this one apart in an attempt to use the proper pintle with the bolt on housing that belongs to 3.3L's. No real idea what I was thinking. I found that the pintle acts erratically or sometimes not at all.
Got out 3 spare junkyard AIS motors that I collected while fixing my Holset Spirit's idle issues 1+ years ago. One of them had the right polarity and it actually did what I command.

Very frustrating trying to troubleshoot something that is intermittent or semi responsive.

Going to try building a MS/Extra 3.3.1a firmware tune but I can't get the firmware to be recognized by megasquirt Currently running MS/Extra 3.2.5 but 3.3.1a supposedly is much better idle control

[Ondonti]

Updated to 3.3.1a and right now the valves are leaking so bad against the valve seats that the starter jams up every other revolution and kills power to the entire car. Bah. This battery is so pathetic right now. Still waiting on my new one to arrive. Previously I was "powering through" the backfires. Right now it shuts down even in flood clear mode.

So now....forced upgrade. I wanted to gather data on a stock cylinder head/cam setup but that seems out of the question now.

Need to get my ported heads out of storage, assemble them (reground/repaired valves on shelf for years), finish a set of solid lifters, then install.

[Reaper1]

YAY!!! GOOD cylinder heads!!

[Vigo]

Just borrow that spare 3.0 motor i saw in the back of Reaper's pickup truck. Or is something wrong with those too?

[Reaper1]

That engine is in his Spirit! LOL

[Ondonti]

Just borrow that spare 3.0 motor i saw in the back of Reaper's pickup truck. Or is something wrong with those too?

Hmmm. Dang you. I am pretty sure those are in a giant tub that I just located into my new storage unit. Same place the fun heads are. Buzz kill. I don't think I want to do a stock head swap AGAIN for the sake of 3.0 science that nobody really cares about. I am kinda shocked how fast these valves burned. Not exactly sure why, I did leanburn the heck out of them in Utah and possibly while towing.

I was really wanting to go through and maximize timing at various WOT n/a loadpoints (100kpa) and look for real knock with a mic setup and then possibly keep doing that on the dyno to see if there was power on the table or if timing was too far and hp was dropping off. I still plan on doing that with ported heads/cams but that will be less neato information. The shortblock is OEM 10:1 plus the big Ol' intake manifold so the numbers might not have been as useful for the average 3.0 owner or anything Shelgame might do if modding 3.0 computers.

I really wanted a back to back dyno, before and after heads/cams. This is kinda lame. I only ever had heads/cams without a turbo on a 7:1 compression motor for about 4 blocks of driving so I had no impression of what the difference would be compared to stock on an n/a application.

I bought a cheap M2010 helmet since my M2000 is long expired and probably would have ruined any "successful" track visits. Matte black as I really didn't like the shiny black helmet that I had. Crazy battery is on the way too.

[Vigo]

Yeah, the main advantage of tuning an n/a timing curve would be if the motor was stock enough so that Rob/etc could use those numbers for other people's stockish builds.

We already know what stockish 3.0/5spds make and run in various weights of vehicles on stock cal. The only interesting thing to find out would be how far into the 14s a stock longblock 3.0 would go with a good tune and normal external breathing mods. I think Josh's old ET if not MPH could be hit by a less-modified car with a good tune on it.

But, proving that is a real charity case when you have way bigger goals in the end anyway. All my heavy dynasty needed to run 14s was a pressure plate and i didnt even do that. It still had a stock 180* intake pipe. Sometimes you just honestly dont care enough.

[Ondonti]

Yeah, the main advantage of tuning an n/a timing curve would be if the motor was stock enough so that Rob/etc could use those numbers for other people's stockish builds.

We already know what stockish 3.0/5spds make and run in various weights of vehicles on stock cal. The only interesting thing to find out would be how far into the 14s a stock longblock 3.0 would go with a good tune and normal external breathing mods. I think Josh's old ET if not MPH could be hit by a less-modified car with a good tune on it.

But, proving that is a real charity case when you have way bigger goals in the end anyway. All my heavy dynasty needed to run 14s was a pressure plate and i didnt even do that. It still had a stock 180* intake pipe. Sometimes you just honestly dont care enough.

I did find out so far that the 1994 automatic transmission SBECII runs the same timing as a 1992 SBECII 5 speed ecu. Scanner showed the same timing at the same rpms for WOT for up to 4500 rpms. Video lost focus on the scanner from the test pull Reaper1 and I did so I don't have more info then that at this time. From Ed Kelly's dyno tests, its clear that below 3000 rpms you don't gain much of anything with added timing and going farther will knock. Now, the factory pulls a LOT of timing around that switchover point in early years and less in later years. This means that even if you added 3 degrees base timing, early ECU's still have about 4 degrees pulled after peak torque. I don't know if that was a safety thing or if that was torque management done by Chrysler. Guessing the latter. Later ECU's have 1 degree less timing at peak torque and then only drop 2 degrees after.

[Ondonti]

Vigo bugged me some more by text and I finally got time today to mess with megasquirt settings. I ported back to 3.2.5 ms2/extra firmware from the "stable updated" 3.3.1a and the car started up.

I started a new 3.3.1 tune from scratch to replace the cheating direct port from 3.2.5 I had done that required reviewing a list of 33 errors (easier then redoing every single setting but sketchy in its own way when the function of a bunch of settings changes).

3.3.1 update was done for better idle control but I found out that along with enlarged accelleration enrichment tables, some items are handled completely differently. This meant when I visually copied over settings I got a few things way wrong. Instead of a 6900 soft 7000 hard rev limiter in version 3.2.5, I was now set to 6900 soft limit zone (hysteresis/dead zone) and 7000 hard limiter, which meant that my actual rev limit started at 100 rpms. Blah. I see no sense in changing something that was so simple. To me, after you do something a simple way for 10+ years, you don't change it for funsies without some more obvious warnings. Something like a simplified change list that even mobile phone apps provide. I also set some fuel correction tables that I wanted to deactivate (not able to do that) to 0% when they should have been 100% (no correction, full fueling). Fuel calculations are fuzzy in megasquirt because some tables are "added to 100%" and other tables are "100+%" so its hard to know if they mean adding fuel or modifying from 100%/full fuel. They don't include explanations on that. Some things are "enrichments" and others are "corrections from 100%" which I find ridiculous. One way or the other. All or nothing. Thanks.

After fixing things as much as I could, I took a datalog, googled the fact that I had zero PW (pulsewidth and also total fuel correction) after cranking and found a bunch of people who all had my same problem when updating to 3.3.1 Problem was simple :P Both my sons were a bit distracting so I only figured out these problems when I could use a higher % of my brain power/attention.

One of the random hints to someone else while I googled my zero PW after cranking problem gave me the idea that if I pull back ignition timing during startup I might have less backfires on the leaky valve heads.

Now that the car is running again I am not worried about installing and frying my new battery. I had jumper cables and a charger on the Duster today :P

After I get the battery mounting sorted, I am not sure what my next avenue with the car is. 3.3.1 has a lot of fun settings to play with but what I really want prior to upgrading heads/cams is to get the idle control functioning. Once that works I want to try to relearn how to use my knock microphone or be forced to buy/make something a little better so I can get spark timing a bit more aggressive prior to dyno time. I don't want to spend a lot of time on the dyno trying to figure out if the engine is knocking when I am feeling the time crunch of hourly rental. That is the real reason I want to make sure I can reliably listen to the motor. Mic worked great on a bone stock quiet 3.0 but failed to record real sound in the Duster, possibly because the recording suffered from severe sound wave clipping (input volume too high to record the peaks and valleys of the sound waves). I might simply have to mess with the volume settings on the microphone and keep a record of what setting each vehicle likes.

[Sundance 6g72]

So if i dont use MS to control idle, dont update firmware??

[Ondonti]

Yeah deleting all the useless posts would be fine.

Looking back, the first post is when I bought the 190,000 mile motor in 2009. The motor won a dyno competition (beating out the shop cars) with a stock n/a ecu and plenty of fuel from the new system. Fastest the car EVER was by a large margin. Installed megasquirt2, no rising rate regulator, unretarded the cams and installed test item solid rockers. Injectors maxed out at 14 pounds of boost. Rolled with my friends 125mph Nissan on a tune I made up based on a guess. Broke axles each time it was at the track (even sadly racing my Nissan friend), mostly because I swapped to a stock heavy flywheel to protect the main bearings and started using launch control. 1st son born 2 months after last broken axle and the next time I tried to drive the car (3 years later) I had already stolen all the turbo parts and even the 190k mile cylinder heads to put on my daily driver with junk burned valve cylinder heads traded back onto the Duster. Drained 3 year old E85, replaced 1 dead fuel pump. Transmission synchros were seized from corrosion while sitting so no driving. Found bearing race walking off and into the case. Installing an extensive and light battery cutoff, interior, building a new hatch seal, and replacing the non matching wrong year door are the mods so far this year.

So for me, the car already accomplished what I really wanted, which is high power from a low boost high mileage motor. 1/4 times are a way to quantify results because in the past someone else always paid/provided for my dyno time. That means the dyno it was not something I considered when the project started. I also have a long standing 11 second goal on low boost that revolves around not breaking NHRA rules for lack of safety equipment. I don't see the car running a 10 second pass here in Seattle because the track people are very grumpy with safety after that NHRA Top Fuel driver died. The most I could think of is 330' racing since I have never heard of someone getting booted for going too fast at that. I don't want to run a lame duck 10 second pass just to set another 3.0 benchmark record and get myself in trouble. I failed tech last year and they made me install a battery cutoff even though the car should only run 14's and still has battery FWD of the cabin. I would never even have run 13's or 12's or 11's previously if I had been nailed for that in tech. No redneck freebies here. Expensive/extensive safety equipment is not on my list.

I have much more interesting mental priorities with the car then I did in 2009 but I don't have time like I did back then. My kids like food/shelter/medical what is left of my time.
I had friends in Utah interested in drag racing or people I liked competing with. None of that here. Its a lot easier to race when everyone loves seeing your car instead of showing up to a snob track to fail tech in a place nobody knows you. That means intellectually satisfying projects move to the top of the priority list. I don't try to keep what I am doing a secret just because it might not impress somebody or keep up some image. That means there is some boring stuff here.

I have a really fun daily driver and that keeps the boost bug from biting me. I have successfully not increased the boost for 2 years and I think as much about playing with my daily as I do about anything else.

I do think its funny that I put about 10x the miles on a car that I have not really driven in 3.5 years as Shadow put on his "street car." I always knew that was a crock. I don't know that I have ever once worried about calling a car a street car. They are all illegal in the U.S. or Canada no matter what way you look at it. Even most of the slow cars here are illegal. I accept the term daily driver because that describes the car you drive to work/etc. It is a fact, not an opinion. I have a lot more enjoyment from driving my daily because I never feel like I wish I was in a faster car. I always wish for something faster when driving my wife's 3.0. Even my wife told me this morning that she wished her car was faster up that big hill like mine is.

[Shadow]

Yeah deleting all the useless posts would be fine.

Agreed.

[Reaper1]

I have a lot more enjoyment from driving my daily because I never feel like I wish I was in a faster car. I always wish for something faster when driving my wife's 3.0. Even my wife told me this morning that she wished her car was faster up that big hill like mine is.

There's your chance!! Rebuild one of the 670's with a good converter, plop the AWD into it, boost it with the turbo off the Starlet....EPIC win!!

[Ondonti]

There's your chance!! Rebuild one of the 670's with a good converter, plop the AWD into it, boost it with the turbo off the Starlet....EPIC win!!

Woh, whats the fun of AWD auto wife car without a turbo so small she can't avoid 4 wheel burnouts.

Messed around with timing maps and idle settings the last few days (armchair, not on the car) and hoping to test out a few version of the current tune. I don't know if I will get on the street without the new battery (or always try to stall on a down hill....hah).

[Ondonti]

I have a hearing test at 5:00am for work so I don't think it was a great idea to be sitting in the Duster for over and hour with the doors open, especially when the idle was very high at times.

Closed loop idle working

Learned:

Had to use "always on" for idle stepper motor control. Hold current and moving only lead to the motor stopping and not moving again.

Had to jack up the lowest rpm (changed 800rpm bin to 500) timing compared to 1000 rpms so as rpms try to dive the motor makes more hp. Same thing with VE tables. Add more fuel at 500 rpms then 1000 and also add more fuel at high KPA (load/MAP reading). Without doing this, the rpms oscillate too much to even enter closed loop idle. Maxed out the RPMdot (rpm change over time) but that was not enough until I fixed the oscillation.

I think the problem I will still have is afterstart enrichment and cycles. I didn't mess with that but when I tried restarting it didn't want to get into CL idle until I basically reloaded the tune while running. Didn't try it again. This was all done at 180 degrees coolant temperature so I know there will be more fussiness when its cold. Some of the tricks I tried will probably cause problems at lower temperatures.

[Ondonti]

Went through my tune and have added the new extended tables for acceleration enrichment. Now the KPA/second (map sensor changes) and TPS%/second settings are useful in non granny driving situations. Before, moderately aggressive driving would put the acceleration tables out of their maximum table value. That meant fuel enrichment capped off. To prevent leaning out on hard "lift" shifts, you had to screw up low speed driving (flooding the engine and bogging/bucking).

Also added adaptive idle timing for my close loop idle. Had to adjust the settings in the car. I have the idle timing set very aggressively. This seems to have really calmed out the idle and kept its hysteresis low (how far idle wanders up and down from target). The definition of this table is that it pulls timing relative to the rpms above or below your target rpm ( which is another table curve you create based on temperature). Again, I get grumpy at Megasquirt since there were NO adequate descriptions on how this function works. I had to search for a long time reading peoples same questions until someone actually gave an answer that was almost direct enough to make sense. Writing descriptions for something you created is like proofreading your own essay. It makes sense to you every time but maybe not to anyone else.


Also noticed really low idle vacuum (47kpa) and that it was running very rich (11:1). I pulled out some fuel from the VE map so now the AFR was in the high 12's and KPA dropped down to 38. I didn't go beyond this. Making changes to the VE in closed loop could mess up stuff that is not "closed loop idle" behavior.

The end result is that my idle only wanders about 50 rpms above or below my target (per coolant temperature) once it gets into closed loop mode and most of the time its just puttering around in a window of about 50 rpms total. I put the close loop "activation" settings to be very "easy" and activate at almost any opportunity.

BTW I love my new battery. New spark tables added based on the update I did to my ignition table creation spreadsheet. Averaged the 1989 OEM WOT and part throttle load spark addition tables which are interestingly very very close to the tables I created based on Evo10 and 1999 VR4 spark tables. I only did this work in the "out of boost" load ranges. One reason why I referenced both Evo10 an 1999vr4 tables was that the Evo10 has a high compression mitsubishi turbo motor where the 1999 vr4 is a low compression version of the 6g72 with 4 valve heads.

[Ondonti]

I also noticed that the difficulty in transition from start to closed loop (a few seconds after start) is that when rpms tumble down the idle stepper opens wide and that causes MAP sensor readings to go into very low vacuum (near 0 psi boost) and as the load travels that direction, timing falls off hard which keeps things moving in the wrong direction since less timing means less power to increase rpms. I don't know how much timing I want to add to those locations just to help idle transition. Not sure if those load cells are used much in my driving style but I don't want to hurt the motor. I will have to consider increasing timing there otherwise there are no settings to deal with that. At least I have a datalog. My problem makes complete sense now. Can't blame afterstart enrichment etc.

[Ondonti]

Looking at the same datalog above, I charted out

Spark Advance
Base Spark Advance
Spark Table 1
Idle corrective advance

And realized that with my base timing set at 15 degrees offset, megasquirt is unable to achieve anything less then 16 degrees advanced. This makes tuning idle not as easy and also creates a problem for boost because my planned timing table at low rpms requires less than 16 degrees of timing once it gets around 7psi boost (150kpa) and around 3000 rpms. That timing stays very low until 4500 and then ramps up quickly. 3000 rpms won't be a problem because I would never get much more then 7psi with a large cam installed but 3500-4500 will be a problem as boost ramps up and peaks in that range with the turbo I will again be using in the future. When I set base timing it was happiest at 15 degrees of offset. Now I need to see how far I can reduce the offset. Maybe it will behave better with the tune a bit more dialed in.

Originally in 2010 I had zero offset, my base timing adjustment had been set with an OEM ecu at 12 degrees stock. I then just decided I would subtract 12 degrees from my actual timing map. At this point I have no idea what was going on with my "real" total spark timing then but reported spark values were able to go to zero and over 40 degrees. I hear we only have around 40 degrees of spark adjustment with our distributor so I don't know why I would want 16 to 56 when most of the upper range is unusable...The old firmware datalogs do not have as much information to sift through.

I don't exactly understand why Megasquirt won't allow you to have your timing less than the offset. Now I have to research :P

[Vigo]

Sounds like you are figuring things out very quickly. It's good that you have time to dedicate to this because a standalone can be one step forward and two steps back if the only thing that really works well is WOT. Getting everything else right is probably where the vast majority of the tuning work really is.