93 2.4l DOHC Shadow

[turboshad]

DJ, where is your EGT probe placed and what kind of probe (full sheilded, ect) and gauge are you using?

If you want to figure out the backpressure in the manifold, just drill and tap a hole for a SS brake fitting, screw that in, double flare some tubing and run it to a gauge. No need for anything really special here.

The probe is placed in the middle between the flange and the fitting in this picture where the runners come together. It is probably a bit hotter there since all the gasses will be running into the back wall but I have no idea by how much and am pretty sure it would still peg the gauge. I'm using the standard Autometer pyrometer gauge that goes to 1600deg.



I was thinking I should get a pressure reading in the middle since the edge would have a different velocity then the majority of the gasses but I guess it will probably be close enough for it's served purpose.

If I change turbos I'm actually a bit excited to make another manifold as I'm not a really big fan of my first collector attmept.

[Shadow]

Speaking of your first header attemp. That was just mild steel, right? Any issues?

[rx2mazda]

Thanks everyone for the compliments and for those of you who commented I'm honored but I think I am maaaaaybe a Warren super weenie hut junior. I have a looooooong ways to go before I am at his level of excellence but he is definitely someone I aspire to.

Gotta agree with you here, though...I wouldn't even give you "Warren Little weenie" status! I mean, he's running 10.2's on a 8 valve with a 50trim and you can't even get a 10.99 with a freaking HE351 and 8 more valves! Then you wanna blame the turbo? Honestly, I think it's YOUR tune(and driving skills or lack of). I mean come on DJ, Jackson is putting down 500whp on the same turbo on a stock TIII with a FWDPerformance cal and you can't get the might 2.4 any higher?! You need slap a distributor on the side of that head and get you a FWDP cal. Either that or get a BS3 system and a Lotus head! Newb.

[turbovanman²]

Not sure I'd run 12:1, I've melted enough engines that I don't need anymore, lol.

[turboshad]

ROFL........if I put my engine in an Omni I would have 9s instantly. That's something I learned from a close friend of mine so I know it's true. That is all.........for now.

[Shadow]

Not sure I'd run 12:1, I've melted enough engines that I don't need anymore, lol.

12:1 is no problem IF everything else is working as it should. I still tune for high 11's (sometimes even mid 11's) just to give so room for error.

---------- Post added at 09:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 AM ----------

ROFL........if I put my engine in an Omni I would have 9s instantly. That's something I learned from a close friend of mine so I know it's true. That is all.........for now.

Your P/T in an Omni, 10's if you can drive it there (and I'm pretty sure You could) deff No where near 9's!

Now your Holset on Warrens ride, well that screams 9's All day long! On an 8v yet! With No Nos!!!!!

[turbovanman²]

12:1 is no problem IF everything else is working as it should. I still tune for high 11's (sometimes even mid 11's) just to give so room for error.

I aim for 11.5, don't need anymore carnage, lol.

[turboshad]

Just checked the schedule and the track will be open from the 30th-2nd so I am going to shoot for getting out during the day on Sat and maybe even Sun. Here's hoping the weather is good and child birth doesn't foil my plans. :fingers crossed:

[135sohc]

Nature always has a funny way of messing up your plans...

[Shadow]

One more thing I wanted to mention about your turbo. (you may already know this) A lot of ppl are still confused as to what the HE351 actually is. That compressor IS an HX40 compressor wheel, and not just any HX40, it's the Super HX40 7 blade. When I originally looked at running this turbo I tore it down, measured everything and had my turbo buddy glenn check all the part #'s for me.

So, I knew from the get-go that the HE351 was for all intent and purpose, an in-house HY35/HX40 hybrid. Now the DSM guys have been making great power from that wheel (anywear from high 580-680WHP) on the HX40 turbos and they're using the BEP turbine housings to do it. .55 A/R and .70 A/R if memory serves.

So I figured the turbine side of the HE351 can't be that much more restrictive than an HX40 turbine wheel in a .55 A/R housing? Can it?

Anyway, this was all stuff I looked at years ago (and had completly forgotten about) when I originally decided to run the HE351 AND to try to determine how far I could go on it.

Something to consider, All the DSM HX40's with big #'s were running 40+psi and said the turbo really came alive up there. Wish they would have taken some drive preasure readings, can hardly wait to see what yours are.

Good luck!

[turboshad]

Hmmm..I didn't know that. One thing I don't like about A/R values is that all .63 A/Rs are not equal. Since it is just a ratio a larger more free flowing area will have the same A/R as a smaller area as long as the larger area also has a larger radius to the center point. It makes it really hard for me to mentally compare various scrolls. I find it hard to believe that once I start pushing the pressure to 40 that all of a sudden I will start seeing proper power vs. pressure gains. Going to 40 may be the only way to squeeze every last ounce of flow out of it but to me that would also mean you are getting way out of it's "system" efficiency per say. It's interesting that myself, you and Jackson all seem to be around the 500 mark, not to mention 500 seeming to be the cap of what I can find for other testimonials. When is someone going to really go past or is it a sign?

[Directconnection]

Gotta agree with you here, though...I wouldn't even give you "Warren Little weenie" status! I mean, he's running 10.2's on a 8 valve with a 50trim and you can't even get a 10.99 with a freaking HE351 and 8 more valves! Then you wanna blame the turbo? Honestly, I think it's YOUR tune(and driving skills or lack of). I mean come on DJ, Jackson is putting down 500whp on the same turbo on a stock TIII with a FWDPerformance cal and you can't get the might 2.4 any higher?! You need slap a distributor on the side of that head and get you a FWDP cal. Either that or get a BS3 system and a Lotus head! Newb.

For a second there... I thought Ondonti hacked into your account...

[turbovanman²]

When is someone going to really go past or is it a sign?

You, when you turn it up to 40 psi,

[turboshad]

For a second there... I thought Ondonti hacked into your account...

He's just bitter that his GLH-RT still doesn't have a number to go with the "RT" in it's title, or an ET or MPH for that matter.

[rx2mazda]

For a second there... I thought Ondonti hacked into your account...

It was my best impersonation. I need to keep practicing to get as good as Brent(in a facets of life)though!

He's just bitter that his GLH-RT still doesn't have a number to go with the "RT" in it's title, or an ET or MPH for that matter.

You can do a lot better than this DJ! I'm disappointed.

[Reaper1]

The pressure reading you are looking for is an overall pressure, NOT dependent on velocity. Having the sampling port 90* to the flow is the best way to acquire this.

[69viper]

I would like to get something set up for the next race. Hopefully I will have a camera by then and if not maybe Steve will let me borrow his Gopro for a few passes. Is there such think as an exhaust pitot tube so I can get it into the center of the flow? I do know that my EGT gauge pegs every pass and I don't know where it settles out at but I haven't really cared b/c the AFs and timing are both good.

Just checked the schedule and the track will be open from the 30th-2nd so I am going to shoot for getting out during the day on Sat and maybe even Sun. Here's hoping the weather is good and child birth doesn't foil my plans. :fingers crossed:

Sure, no problem on the camera. You may have to come pick it up. I might be helping a friend move on that weekend.

[turbovanman²]

It was my best impersonation. I need to keep practicing to get as good as Brent(in a facets of life)though!

I don't know, I think you've nailed it, but then maybe you were always like that,

[Shadow]

It's interesting that myself, you and Jackson all seem to be around the 500 mark, not to mention 500 seeming to be the cap of what I can find for other testimonials. When is someone going to really go past or is it a sign?

Some good points indeed + your deep enough into the map at only 24psi to be making 600WHP on a good breathing set-up. I think the drive preasure reading Should tell the story IF the turbine/housing IS backing up.

Myself, I still have a # of tricks up my sleeve if that turns out to be the case. When I measured the outlet/wheel size and also compared the 9cm housing to a T3 .63 A/R stage 3 (9cm was deff larger in flow volume) I was shocked at the 30% more flow (over the .63 A/R stage 3) that I came up with. So I looked ahead to what I could do IF that didn't hold true.

Here's what interests me the most. With all the debates and talk of header vs stock or log style exhaust mani, I've never spoken with anyone on here that shares my view/opinion on what is actually taking place. (who knows, I could be way off base with my thinking?)

IF the turbine is at it's limit (without raising exhaust BP to an extreem to force it through) on my Charger, for eg. and I'm seeing just over 1:1 exhaust drive preasure vs intake boost preasure. My next logical step would be to build a header, one would think. I've had plans to do this for the last couple years, but just haven't got around to it yet.

My plan was to build a 4 into 1, same as you have. Interestingly enough, I may not have to wait that long now that your going to tap yours for a drive preasure read. Here's what I would expect to see and what I think Should be going on when switching to a header like yours vs the stock log like mine.

More velocity, but Lower drive preasure, here's why. A 4 into one system (as far as I can tell) Should make the most efficient use of the turbine/housing. While my mani is really just a preasure cell, forcing the exhaust preasure through the turbine like a meat grinder, the higher velocity pulses from the header Should "force" the exhaust through the wheel much more efficiently.

Imagine my mani and turbo attatched to a compressor tank at 40psi constant preasure. Now imagine my same turbo hooked to a nozzle and tube with 1 1/2" ID at 40psi shooting straight down the turbine housing. One would think that the header would not only move the exhaust drive preasure through the turbine wheel more efficiently, but you would spool faster as well.

This is where things get schetchy. Most ppl report Slower spool-up with a header vs a log style mani, the reverse of what I would have thought. So, does the header move (pulse) through the turbine so efficiently that is has less energy acting on the wheel? IF that were the case, you would deff be able to make sig more power through it!

On the other hand, does the meat grinder "preasure cell" effect of the log mani allow more exhaust preasure to back up faster allowing a greater preasure differential (before vs aft) on the turbine giving faster spool?

The fact that we are both running the same turbo and both 4" dumps makes this a perfect comparo. (although others will prob still argue that you can't compare anything! lol) At around the same HP you should have Less preasure in your header than I have in my exhaust mani. Wether you do or don't Should tell the whole story of what's going on, considering my system is much more restrictive than yours.

To bad you didn't have a tap in there before the cams/ported head went on, that would have been some good info!

For comparative purpose, what ID did you use for the header? Where do you reach full spool 4th gear 24-28psi boost?

[turbovanman²]

This is where things get schetchy. Most ppl report Slower spool-up with a header vs a log style mani, the reverse of what I would have thought. So, does the header move (pulse) through the turbine so efficiently that is has less energy acting on the wheel? IF that were the case, you would deff be able to make sig more power through it!

On the other hand, does the meat grinder "preasure cell" effect of the log mani allow more exhaust preasure to back up faster allowing a greater preasure differential (before vs aft) on the turbine giving faster spool?

That's what I thought too back in the day but it makes sense, a log manifold is like a 1/4 pipe, my example, so your slamming the pulses thru twists, turns, and its getting slammed into walls, turns, turning back on itself but due to all the gas's sharing the same area, its forced thru increasing velocity but also with more restriction. A header allows the gas's to flow more freely so at lower rpm, they don't have as much velocity and now act like they are going thru a 3" pipe, but at higher rpm's, they are not being held back anymore by the manifold and the other cylinders, now the turbine and housing etc are the restriction. I could be off base though.