8V, PT+Beehives: Ti Retainers?

[janus]

Hi guys,

i'm currently rebuilding/bulletproofing my valvetrain with some fresh MP PT lifters, shims from the pope, 26995 beehive springs and currently doing research about possible retainers.

first off, in the long run i'll try to reach something in the 250+whp range with my 92 2.5l T1, i'm guessing i'll probably end up with a tbi roller or if funds allow an aftermarket like an F2 or S1 cam. now i'm pretty sure this is still within the limit for most people to say no need to spend money on the Ti retainers (sorry no offense). but i guess i just want them while i'm at the valvetrain already

so.. with the 26995 beehives, which LS1 Ti retainers can i use? i did some "research" on summit and came up with the following data:

the beehive springs are 1.065 in. OD and 0.650 in. ID at top.
so, do they require a retainer of min. 1.065in OD and max. 0.650 ID?
did i get that right? or is it more a thing of direct fit, ie you need a retainer that is exactely 1.065/0.65?

anyways, some comp cams 7° Ti retainers for comparison:

CCA-754: 1.250 in. OD / .610 in. ID
+ 0.860 in. OD of middle spring for duals
"Will work with single or dual springs. GM Gen III with stock springs."
looks to be a stock replacement for LS1, but would it fit the beehives as well?
because of the 1.25 OD, i guess these are a bit heaver than other TI retainers..

CCA-762: 1.055 in. OD / .640 in. ID
"Works with springs CCA-26915 or CCA-26918." (and it says used for 5.7L chrysler ) 26918 beehives: 1.055 in. OD / 0.650 in. ID at top and overall a bit smaller than our 26995s

CCA-772: 1.055 in. OD / .640 in. ID
"Designed for use with CCA-26915 or CCA-26918 valve springs on Gen III engines." LS1 with 26918 the "smaller" beehive springs (see above)

and for reference, the CCA-774 steel retainers some of us are using (i believe?):
CCA-774: 1.055 in. OD, .640 in. ID
same as 772 safe for material.

soooooo.. anyone got some specs of retainers they're running with the beehives!?

thanks in advance for any hints or comments,
greetz
Andi

[janus]

come on guys, don't be shy! someone gotta know this stuff, or at least be able to post some numbers of their currently used ls1 retainers

P.S.
forgot to tell you, i found out that even the "bigger" dual spring-capable CCA-754's are only 4 ounces per set of 16, so that makes it like 7.09 gram per retainer.. anyone ever weighed one of our 8V stock retainers?

[BadAssPerformance]

For a 250whp setup I wouldnt worry about using anything facier than a stock valvetrain hardware... Yes it may help, but I am not sure there is not enough power to be had for the amount of work you have to do. I say this mostly because of the smaller cams that you mentioned. If you were going to an S60 cam or something I would just say to get the FM springs, but thats a lot bigger than what you are looking for.

What else do you have done with it? For 250whp, 3" exhaust, 42pph injectors, AFPR, some sort of intercooler, 18-20psi... stock head and cam even...

[janus]

i broke a camshaft so that's why i'm now rebuilding my valvetrain with better parts. sure, as said the ti are probably overkill, but i'm definately going to use PTs etc. and i was interested in experiences people who where using pt beehives and Ti would have to share with us. if anybody is actually running them, lol

just trying to eliminate any parastic losses in the run.. i would like to get a rather high output per psi and low boost performance..

[GLHNSLHT2]

I used the 774's and for locks the 628's. I thought about getting the Ti's but the chromoly's are pretty light and I couldn't really justify the price for Ti retainers. The car sings above 3500 and I've wacked the 7200rpm rev limiter a couple times on accident. I couldn't imagine the Ti's helping too much. I have 8 retainers and I think 8 locks too that I don't plan on using. These springs/locks/retainers along with some PT lifters should be stock I drive down the freeway in 3rd gear at 70+ just to hear the motor sing sometimes

[BadAssPerformance]

i broke a camshaft so that's why i'm now rebuilding my valvetrain with better parts. sure, as said the ti are probably overkill, but i'm definately going to use PTs etc. and i was interested in experiences people who where using pt beehives and Ti would have to share with us. if anybody is actually running them, lol

just trying to eliminate any parastic losses in the run.. i would like to get a rather high output per psi and low boost performance..

How did the stock valve springs break the cam?

Yes it is good to eliminate parasitic losses throughout the system... but if you have any kind of a budget, the stuff you are doing is usually at the end of the list... a few of us making ~250whp on stock long blocks.

[DaveSkrab]

I have to agree with JT here, 2.5 long block, with a Good intercooler, 2.5" exhaust, +20% injectors and a stock Garrett turbo. 18-20psi. This would be the simplest budget friendly way to achive the goal. Heck that's nearly the setup I have in my CSXT right now. 12-13psi boost I'd wager that mine is making 200WHP right now. We'll find out down the road.
However, if you're dead set on upgrading the valvetrain, I'd try to PM BadFastGTC. He's got quite a bit of cylinder head / valvetrain info that he may be willing to share.

Good luck with your build!

[Juggy]

How did the stock valve springs break the cam?
.

my buddy snapped a stock cam in 1/2 in his 92 iroc 2.5 T1...pretty sure he said he had the car gassed in 5th gear doing some decent speeds...then car fell on its face

[GLHNSLHT2]

If I ever have to rebuild a 8v head again I'm going straight to the 995's, I love mine.

[bgbmxer]

friend broke a cam in his stock turbo van. i have heard it has to do with timing belt tension

[janus]

yeah well the thing i experienced was sure caused by too tight t-belt tension, but then a rocker fell off after/while an hour of driving at 100mph+ speeds.. broke my cam between the first cyl valves and messed up my head cam bearings. only had it 1.5kmls on the road so far i'd rather not have something like that ever happen again, i know the t-belt tension was my fault but anyways.. i decided to spend some $$, do it once do it right kinda thing.

the 995 beehives sure seem like a very good part, i already found someone to share them with so i'm going this route. i already purchased the pt lifters as well. so now i'm looking for retainers and keepers. i might just bite and get a set of the Ti's just for kicks. that is, if i can find someone to share them with if anyone is interested just shoot me a pm!
if the 774 are suitable, i guess that would mean we could get either 772 or 762. need to take a look at the keepers mentioned here.

thanks for all your comments and help guys! i'll keep you posted

P.S. i just found that summit is also selling these retainers as singles! the p/n would be cca-772-1. they're also 10 bucks cheaper than the (16) set if you'd buy 16 of the singles lol.
the locks GLHSLNT2 (did i get that right?) specified, cca-629, only have one groove, iirc our locks/valves have like 2 or 3? also can someone confirm about the 5.5mm valve stem diameter? i'd need to go and measure otherwise thanks again

[Austrian Dodge]

high output per psi and low boost performance?
-> good flowing head/intake/ex. manifold or go 16V

honestly, i wouldn't bother bulletproofing the valvetrain at this HP levels and a stock cam.

[inmyshadow]

You might want to lower your HP guessimate. I"d say you are pushing around 180whp with your setup.

On a FMIC, TII turbo, +40/3bar, turbo back 2.5in exhaust and 18lbs of boost got me 218whp. With a sidemount intercooler, TII, MP computer, turbo back 2.5 exhaust and 15lbs of boost got me 190whp.

Who hasn't broken a cam. I broke on 8yrs ago on my old shadow. A chrysler mechanic told the breakage is usually caused by an over tensioned timing belt. The cam was replaced. I haven't has any problems with head since then. Its been on two cars now.

I'm at the same point as janus. I'm replacing my motor this week. For valvetrain, I'm using PT lifters, MP dual spring valve springs, MP chrome moly retainers, and MP hardened keepers. After my motor is all set, I'm planning to run a more aggressive cam. But I've already stepped up to a Super60 turbo and such. Only things really left for me is a ported head and bigger cam.

later

I have to agree with JT here, 2.5 long block, with a Good intercooler, 2.5" exhaust, +20% injectors and a stock Garrett turbo. 18-20psi. This would be the simplest budget friendly way to achive the goal. Heck that's nearly the setup I have in my CSXT right now. 12-13psi boost I'd wager that mine is making 200WHP right now. We'll find out down the road.
However, if you're dead set on upgrading the valvetrain, I'd try to PM BadFastGTC. He's got quite a bit of cylinder head / valvetrain info that he may be willing to share.

Good luck with your build!

[janus]

well so far i haven't even stated my engine combo anywhere here

here's what i'll be starting with in the near future:
3" exhaust incl. SV
rebuilt '89 garrett TII
ported exhaust manifold
ebay FMIC 2.5" I/O
FWIW, upgraded valvetrain + tbi roller
walbro 255
AFPR (still need one)
13-14psi

here's what i plan/need to add in the longer run
custom / vendor cal + injectors
ported or custom intake
mild head port work
maybe a better cam & bigger turbo

any opinions on where these mods would approximately take me?
hmm, i guess the thread name is not really appropriate any more anyways, i think you guys do a good job putting ti retainers off the list i'll take chromemoly ones into consideration, but if funds allow i'll end up getting ti ones.

i'm taking this build step by step, so yes i do still have the long block in its stock form. and yes, i will be paying attention to AFR and knocks and if it really blows then it's finally time to throw some forged slugs in lol

[GLHNSLHT2]

Yeah you can't use the locks/keepers I use because I have custom Manley valves from Steve Menegon.

yeah well the thing i experienced was sure caused by too tight t-belt tension, but then a rocker fell off after/while an hour of driving at 100mph+ speeds.. broke my cam between the first cyl valves and messed up my head cam bearings. only had it 1.5kmls on the road so far i'd rather not have something like that ever happen again, i know the t-belt tension was my fault but anyways.. i decided to spend some $$, do it once do it right kinda thing.

the 995 beehives sure seem like a very good part, i already found someone to share them with so i'm going this route. i already purchased the pt lifters as well. so now i'm looking for retainers and keepers. i might just bite and get a set of the Ti's just for kicks. that is, if i can find someone to share them with if anyone is interested just shoot me a pm!
if the 774 are suitable, i guess that would mean we could get either 772 or 762. need to take a look at the keepers mentioned here.

thanks for all your comments and help guys! i'll keep you posted

P.S. i just found that summit is also selling these retainers as singles! the p/n would be cca-772-1. they're also 10 bucks cheaper than the (16) set if you'd buy 16 of the singles lol.
the locks GLHSLNT2 (did i get that right?) specified, cca-629, only have one groove, iirc our locks/valves have like 2 or 3? also can someone confirm about the 5.5mm valve stem diameter? i'd need to go and measure otherwise thanks again

[ssheen]

I was looking at Ti retainers as well. Since I have them sitting here. I did have some springs to run with them, but have since changed plans and I am looking at possibly going with a bit less seat pressure than what the springs I had, give.

[janus]

thanks for all the people chiming in here! anyone know what these GM GenIII (LS1/3100 V6) retainers weigh? the 772 retainers are only 4.5grams each, which seems really light even for a titanium retainer.

glhnshlt2: hah okay, that makes things different of course

ssheen: hmm, which exact springs and retainers have you been (planning on) using? do you still have the other half of that (16) set of ti's?

[GLHNSLHT2]

4.5 grams does seem awfully light as my Bic pen weighs 4.95 grams. A Sharpie Marker weighs in at almost 10 grams. I need to grab my spare chromoly retainers down and weigh them.

[janus]

that'd be great, thanks in advance maybe you could also weigh the stock ones for comparison..

[GLHNSLHT2]

oh I'll see if I can dig up some stock ones, not sure I have any though.