What Flywheel - Your Opinion is apreciated...

[MopàrBCN]

PS: @Reaper.... this looks bad! My flywheel looks similar to yours (although not entirely as bad). However the Pressure Plate in my case has not suffered even close to yours. The only thing there are some heat spots.

My disk in turn looks like someone has cut of spots of the surface.

[badandy]

If you guys reread this, Brent is RIGHT, not WRONG.

He is doing exactly what you should do to help your synchros on a downshift: put it in neutral, let the clutch out and blip the throttle to rev-match (vaguely) and then clutch in and shift into the lower gear.

This whole thing started because people ASSUMED that because Brent didnt explicitly state that he used the clutch twice that he must be using it only once.

If he never specified he used the clutch twice (which he didn't) then aren't you also ASSUMING?...easy to do isn't it?

I thought it was all light hearted fun with the F&F comment until he went off the deep end...then he started giving driving lessons to Simon and Jay. I don't think either one of them need any lessons from him on how to drive a car....do you?

[Vigo]

Well i guess i wasnt EXPLICIT enough either in my explanation.

Basically, you can tell by context clues in Brent's post that he was doing it because it felt better going into gear, as in felt better to his hand on the shifter. If he wasnt double clutching, you wouldnt feel any difference whatsoever in the shifter; the only difference would be when you let the clutch out how much of a 'lash' there would be.


If you look at post #27 (the beginning of the whole thing), what Jay quoted and what his response to that was, you see that brent said something that made perfect sense, and Jay responded with an f&f joke which could easily be taken as an insult. It might not have been, IF he hadnt then launched into an unnecessary correction of the way that he ASSUMED Brent to be wrong. Then it all went downhill.

I talk to both Brent and Jay outside the forums and think highly of both of them, but this whole incident was entirely unnecessary and based on incorrect assumptions about what Brent meant to say, and in the end, if it ends up making Brent look bad when all he did to begin with was say something that made perfect sense, it's not cool.


Otherwise a very productive thread that i thoroughly enjoy

[Juggy]

damn chris that flywheel is lookin bad....mine was like that too but yours is by far worse off.

I got a spare flywheel plate, ill see if i can get it tested for hardnesss sometime....anyone know the rockwell of a stock flywheel?

[Ondonti]

If he never specified he used the clutch twice (which he didn't) then aren't you also ASSUMING?...easy to do isn't it?

I thought it was all light hearted fun with the F&F comment until he went off the deep end...then he started giving driving lessons to Simon and Jay. I don't think either one of them need any lessons from him on how to drive a car....do you?

What would be accomplished by blipping the throttle if the clutch was held in the whole time. The input shaft speed isnt going to do anything but slow down from friction.

The name double clutch says it all right there. Since you don't even seem to know how to downshift properly why would you attack me for no reason and make yourself look silly?
Why would you assume I cant even understand that double means two?
Ive done a few things in my life and understanding that double = two is not one of the things I bother listing on my resume.

I assumed (in error) that you/jay/simon would figure out that double = two and I could simplify what I wrote. Vigo and others got it.

Thats like assuming a double barrel has 1 barrel and doubling down = 1 hand.
I felt the post was pretty offensive and ignorant. Jay wanted to make a badass fast and furious joke and feel like he pinned someone for being a ricer.

[Ondonti]

This clutch had maybe 800 miles. All the destruction happened the last few hundred.
2300 pound car. Weak weak weak crap pressure plate.
The flywheel was actually surfaced without my permission when I had it getting balanced. Thought it was a clutch release problem when it started slipping but it was really the plate. Got the disc rebuttoned, replaced the friction insert and the same plate slipped instantly again. I didnt abuse it and replaced it with a Dual plate, didnt rebutton, didnt replace the friction insert, and it holds great now.

Whats funny is that my old friction surface from 2002 was thicker then the newer ones even after it had been surfaced. I have an old style Fidanza so the bolt pattern is wrong. I have 3 "new style" unused inserts at my house that I cant use. I have to trade them back but Fidanza tech support sucks and is only open 2 hours a day.

[Ondonti]

You can see my plate wasn't strong enough to do the damage that Chris's did.
Mine suffered much worse heat damage. The rivets on mine are completely orange/purple and the color on my plate/insert is worse.

But thats because I couldn't even get enough "hold" to damage anything but the buttons from getting too hot.

[Ondonti]

Here is the backside.

You can see that even with the massive amounts of heat which were caused by having a crap pressure plate, that the areas around the bolts did not get heat damaged at all.
I dont think anyone has heat damage worse then this one and the heat damage is the result of slippage, not the cause.

I wouldnt have a problem with using this insert again honestly. Its the buttons that get glazed and ruined when they get slipped too much.

I think this pretty clearly shows heat transfer is not the "death" of this Flywheel. Even with the massive carnage going on most of the insert is undamaged because it could transfer heat away fast enough to avoid that.
Normal clutches never see anything like that kind of heat unless they are already ruined. Just looking at the surface doesnt tell you the whole story. Nothing is slipping on the back side of the plate so you can see where the heat is going.

[Sloride]

wow.

are my eyes decieving me, or does it look like the heat transfered though the bolts of the insert into the flywheel??

[Vigo]

Thats exactly what it should do.. Although you can see that on the outer diameter areas the bolts were doing more for heat transfer than they were on the inside. The outer area has greater distance between bolts, so the hottest areas there would have the least pressure clamping them to the flywheel itself, and the heat would have the longest distance to get to a bolt. You can see the little rings around the outer bolt holes that seem to suggest that the bolts themselves, and MAYBE the greater contact pressure between the insert and the flywheel immediately around them, are enabling enough adequate heat transfer even when the clutch is slipping like mad.

So.. that pic seems to suggest that a denser bolt pattern with more bolts would really help the insert transfer heat.

However, that's nitpicking only useful for a design revision and FUTURE owners. People who already have the design pictured probably arent going to spend $$$$ on a newer flywheel design just to make sure the insert is in better shape when their clutch slips chronically...

[Juggy]

I have 3 "new style" unused inserts at my house that I cant use. I have to trade them back but Fidanza tech support sucks and is only open 2 hours a day.

u got pics of the difference???? pretty sure im running the old style one too

[Reaper1]

While I won't argue the fact that a massively slipping clutch is going to ruin itself and other parts eventually, I WILL argue that I believe in MY case the issue probably would have never come about if the insert could have transfered the heat away quicker.

Thermal conduction takes time, expecially when going from one material to another. There also doesn't seem to be a lot of direct surface area for the heat to transfer to. These two things equate to heat build up and, for me, a clutch that slipped only under ONE kind of condition. I NEVER got it to slip like that in any other driving condition!

If there was more surface area for the heat to transfer from the insert to the flywheel itself, I probably wouldn't be posting about a failed clutch...yet. I'm sure eventually it would have given up, but with the current tune of the car, I highly doubt it would have happened so fast.

I might just try to pop off my insert today and take pictures of the backside for grins.

Oh, BTW, the new TU Purple PP feels friggin AWSOME in my car(I can't drive the car yet, still waiting on my new brake pads)! The pedal pressure is actually LESS than the plate I just took out! Also, the supplied T/O bearing is MUCH nicer than the old one I had in there. I can't wait to be able to drive it!!

[SUPER60omni]

Oh, BTW, the new TU Purple PP feels friggin AWSOME in my car(I can't drive the car yet, still waiting on my new brake pads)! The pedal pressure is actually LESS than the plate I just took out! Also, the supplied T/O bearing is MUCH nicer than the old one I had in there. I can't wait to be able to drive it!!

Told ya

[Ondonti]

u got pics of the difference???? pretty sure im running the old style one too

Thats all I have on my computer. Still haven't mailed them back because I have some gripes about the fasteners having taller profile heads then the ones 10 years ago so they dont sit down far enough into the insert. I actually reused my old fasteners from 2002.
It might even be possible that the old version is better with more bolts going through......

[Reaper1]

Told ya

I hope I get my pads tomorrow so I can bleed the system (put a new proportion valve and new front calipers on, plus I'm going with ATE Super Blue fluid ) and then drive it! I also fixed the bushing in the one cable(the one that rotates the selector on the tranny, if that makes sense). I used a nylon bushing from Lowes and some JB Weld! I gutted the old busing, had to do some trimming and then JB'd the nylon one in place. The shifter feels SO much better now! It's a modded short throw, so it already was nice, but now...WOW!!!

Once I get her back on the raod I gotta put about 500 miles on her before I can really lay in to her. Even though it's a ceramic clutch, I still like to go through the break-in motions because it makes me feel better....

[Reaper1]

All I can say is: I LOVE my new clutch!!! So far it is friggin awsome!!! The pedal feel is SO nice, it engages smoother than the old one, is actually consistant in where it engages, the engagement travel is NOT too short or too clase to the floor...in all...it's VERY nice! I can't wait to break it in propperly and flog on it some!

Oh, and the TU competition lightend steel flyweel did NOT introduce any harsh vibrations to the car! As a matter of fact, I'd like to say that I think the car is less "buzzy" with it!

[Chris W]

Here is the backside.

You can see that even with the massive amounts of heat which were caused by having a crap pressure plate, that the areas around the bolts did not get heat damaged at all.
I dont think anyone has heat damage worse then this one and the heat damage is the result of slippage, not the cause.

I wouldnt have a problem with using this insert again honestly. Its the buttons that get glazed and ruined when they get slipped too much.

I think this pretty clearly shows heat transfer is not the "death" of this Flywheel. Even with the massive carnage going on most of the insert is undamaged because it could transfer heat away fast enough to avoid that.
Normal clutches never see anything like that kind of heat unless they are already ruined. Just looking at the surface doesnt tell you the whole story. Nothing is slipping on the back side of the plate so you can see where the heat is going.

Your pictures confirm what we have been stating all along. The steel inserts do not have full contact with the aluminum underneath inhibiting full heat transfer to the flywheel. There is contact around the bolts but most hot spots are away from the bolt holes. The excessive heat will break down the ceramic material used in the pads greatly shortening the life of your clutch disk. Obtaining a stronger pressure plate might create less heat due to less slippage, but, it will not increase heat transfer. The issue will still be there.

Chris-TU

[Reaper1]

^^Agreed. The stronger PP will hide the issue, not solve it.

[badandy]

Since you don't even seem to know how to downshift properly why would you attack me for no reason and make yourself look silly?.

Settle down there Jr. I didn't attack you...I simply pointed out that your desription was wrong. If YOU want to look silly I can show you how to drive an 18 wheeler without ANY syncros. ..now go bark up a tree you can climb alright?

Why would you assume I cant even understand that double means two? Ive done a few things in my life and understanding that double = two is not one of the things I bother listing on my resume. I assumed (in error) that you/jay/simon would figure out that double = two and I could simplify what I wrote. Vigo and others got it..

Maybe pompus/arrogant are things you should list on your resume? They got it because they like you and gave you the benefit of the doubt that you really meant to say something you left out.

Thats like assuming a double barrel has 1 barrel and doubling down = 1 hand.
I felt the post was pretty offensive and ignorant. Jay wanted to make a badass fast and furious joke and feel like he pinned someone for being a ricer.

One little F&F crack and you go off? The next thing you know your sighting everyone else for not knowing how to drive?

I didn't get you into this whole "double clutching" debate...nor did I see how it was relevant to the thread...but you felt the need to be Mr. know it all once again...and in your desription to clarify your point you left something out and got questioned on it...and all you know to do is claim all in question can't drive.

Apparently I need to sign up to "Ondonti's High Performance Driving School"...oh please teach me master!

[Ondonti]

Your pictures confirm what we have been stating all along. The steel inserts do not have full contact with the aluminum underneath inhibiting full heat transfer to the flywheel. There is contact around the bolts but most hot spots are away from the bolt holes. The excessive heat will break down the ceramic material used in the pads greatly shortening the life of your clutch disk. Obtaining a stronger pressure plate might create less heat due to less slippage, but, it will not increase heat transfer. The issue will still be there.

Chris-TU

That plate never saw any heat until after it slipped. Crap 1100# (my guess..weaker then stock TBI) plate let go the first time I was in the burnout box.

People use aluminum plates in cars with 800+hp. Lots of whining here about a 200hp cars that can't get their clutch to hold because they bought the wrong parts or trusted something they read on the internet...that was never really tested. Or outdated advice that doesn't apply these days. I gave Clint a rough time about his clutch because he didn't want to get your stronger plate. You obviously are not going to warrant something you don't think is adequate for his goals. I think he was a little stuck in the glory clutch days. His fried current clutch should have taught him a lesson. When a "tIII" clutch fails on a steel flywheel just because you added exhaust to a stockish TII, you need to stop thinking inside the box.

I abused a 4 puck and fidanza since 2002 and never had slip under big load. It actually sucked, had glazed pucks so if you dumped the clutch at the wrong rpm it would slip before bogging (it would eventually grab because the plate was stout). Chattered, but never slipped. Probably put craploads of heat into the flywheel with its crappy glazed pucks. Input shaft bearing failed and required a new disc (got a 3 puck solid hub) cause I only had spare large spline transmissions and a small disc. Broke the Good + 40% eurodrive real TIII plate from 2002 on the first drive with new disc. Bought a crap Valeo +40 "tIII" plate and it failed the first time I had traction in the spring. Even though I had an even more aggressive disc.
Repucked the disc, same new plate, new friction surface. Failed the moment I cane out of the water box with 8 psi boost. Parked.

Bought a 3300# plate from you, same disc that already slipped, Same insert that slipped. Car All of a sudden takes 6200 rpm clutch dumps like nothing on 10 and 14psi boost. Then handles 20psi - 516whp 519ft/lb on the dyno and street. Then handles 23psi in better Vegas air. From my calcs on the high end it should be good for 900 ft/lb but I believe 800 is more realistic. I dont think the aluminum flywheel will be an issue because you cant get away with slipping this much torque anyways. It would cause a LOT more heat then a lower power setup.

While I can slip the clutch easily to drive in reverse, its not really possible to slip it while driving hard. Its on or off. There is a never a time when its heating up from slipping.
I am sure if I really tried to slip the clutch under load, it would fail regardless of my flywheel. Especially with that beefy plate. The moment I let the plate clamp down fully it would tear the pucks apart after they have already been superheated.

Peoples clutches that are only grabbing after they pick up some heat should just buy a clutch that works rather then get away with 20ft/lb more torque because they are using a steel flywheel that will take more improper clutch abuse then an aluminum.
People are acting like there is some giant difference. If you have the wrong clutch then I would probably suggest a steel flywheel because both will slip and the aluminum one won't like the heat from the failing clutch. I completely agree with that fact. Aluminum will kill a bad clutch faster because it cant deal with the heat of the failing clutch.

When people are purposely buying the wrong clutch...thats when I question the intelligence of being picky about flywheels. Maybe they should rethink the clutch because its still failing in the steel setup, just much slower.
I often see people saying "aluminum for daily, steel for racing" and I don't agree with that at all. I would say its the opposite. Street driving is where the heat comes from.
Drag racers with big power are not fiddling with slipping the clutch like stockish cars often do.