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Thread: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

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    Garrett booster shadowdude's Avatar
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    why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    sigh OK ,since this person doesn,t believe me ,can some one else back me up here and say why a wide band is better than a narrow band O2 for our cars,PLEASE!!! why do they not listen to me , why???

  2. #2
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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    The wideband is better for tuning and datalogging since it will accurately sense mixtures of roughly 10:1 all the way to 17:1. This is usually given in a 0-5V scale.

    The narrowband will accurately measure mixtures right about 14:1 to 15.x:1. They are very inaccurate for mixtures straying from this range. This is usually a 0-1V scale. Since the OE's want to keep the catalyst(s) at peak performance they do not need a wideband sensor. Some vehicles do come with a wideband or lambda sensor stock, like many Volkswagons.
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    Visit www.boostbutton.com... Turbo Mopar Contributor ShelGame's Avatar
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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Actually, a standard O2 sensor will read linearly and accurately from 12.7 to about 17 A/F. That's good enough for most NA cars (that run a leaner A/F). But, turbo cars want an A/F closer to 12 at WOT. So, a standard O2 won't tell you anything unless you're too lean for a turbo car.

    Plus, most older ECU's only look at the O2 sensor switching from lean to rich and adjust the mixture based on that. That's why you'll see the A/F guage dancing back and forth like KITT from Knight Rider.

    New cars use a WBO2 becuase under certain conditions (cold start, for catalyst light-off) they run much richer and need to know accurately what the A/F is. Too much fuel will roast a cat in a hurry.
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    Garrett booster shadowdude's Avatar
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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    EXACTLY ,thats what i said ,i went and got one complete wide band kit for the shadow ,the persons i was talking to says that you dont need it and can do with just a narrow band and gauge for around 18 psi to 20psi.They are using just a volt meter tapped into the 02,and they think i am crazy for spending that kind of money on a good wide band.but hey what are you going to tell them right.

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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame
    Actually, a standard O2 sensor will read linearly and accurately from 12.7 to about 17 A/F. That's good enough for most NA cars (that run a leaner A/F). But, turbo cars want an A/F closer to 12 at WOT. So, a standard O2 won't tell you anything unless you're too lean for a turbo car.

    Plus, most older ECU's only look at the O2 sensor switching from lean to rich and adjust the mixture based on that. That's why you'll see the A/F guage dancing back and forth like KITT from Knight Rider.

    New cars use a WBO2 becuase under certain conditions (cold start, for catalyst light-off) they run much richer and need to know accurately what the A/F is. Too much fuel will roast a cat in a hurry.
    Thats actually not accurate at all. A narrow band sensor is only accurate from .98 lambda to 1.02 lambda (14.4 to 15.0 afr) as seen below.



    It's only usefull for measuring a mix right at stoich, perfect for computer control while crusing along but useless for any kind of tuning.

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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    I understand the need to use the wideband for tuning, and maybe I came in late, but can't you use the narrowband for monitoring rather than the wideband? I was under the impression that devices like the (Dawes) start registering around .7V which is richer than Optimal. Or is that a sales pitch?

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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Quote Originally Posted by shelbydave
    I understand the need to use the wideband for tuning, and maybe I came in late, but can't you use the narrowband for monitoring rather than the wideband? I was under the impression that devices like the (Dawes) start registering around .7V which is richer than Optimal. Or is that a sales pitch?
    Look up one post, a narrowband o2 is only accurate at stoich. From 14.4 and richer it will read approx 1.0v and from 15.0 it will read approx 0. There is no way to tell how much richer than 14.4 you are running with a narrowband o2. Now take all this with a grain of salt, some o2s may never reach 1.0 and the range of 14.4 to 15.0 may move by 0.1 up and down but it is for all intents and purposes accurate. You can't monitor or tune with any real safety with a narrowband o2.

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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboGLH
    Thats actually not accurate at all. A narrow band sensor is only accurate from .98 lambda to 1.02 lambda (14.4 to 15.0 afr) as seen below.



    It's only usefull for measuring a mix right at stoich, perfect for computer control while crusing along but useless for any kind of tuning.
    You're right, it's only linear in a small range. But, it's still accurate over a larger range - as long as you know the transfer function. I don't know where my chart came from anymore, but it's different from yours. Longer linear range, and more abrupt transitions.

    It doesn't matter - the point is, a standard O2 is no good for tuning a turbo car.
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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Quote Originally Posted by ShelGame
    You're right, it's only linear in a small range. But, it's still accurate over a larger range - as long as you know the transfer function. I don't know where my chart came from anymore, but it's different from yours. Longer linear range, and more abrupt transitions.

    It doesn't matter - the point is, a standard O2 is no good for tuning a turbo car.
    +1 on the tuning point. I'd like to get a look at your chart to compare. I want to do some more digging and try to find out what the actual range of accuracy is.

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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    I think the narrowband is great as a warning device. Wideband is great for tuning. Most likely if you arent a Dcal wiz, you dont have much tuning ability anyways so that might mean wideband is pointless. If you do have some tuning capability then the wideband can be very helpful, especially if you can datalog it. I dont think wideband is very useful without datalogging software.

  11. #11

    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Quote Originally Posted by Ondonti
    I think the narrowband is great as a warning device. Wideband is great for tuning.

    that much i would agree with, but, i'd disagree that wideband gauges arent useful w/o datalogging capability. they are useful and prefered for full-time engine monitoring due to their inherent accuracy.

    let's bottom line this for the sceptics:
    a good quality wideband device is only about $200. it can save you a burned piston due to its accuracy across the mixture spectrum, unlike narrowband devices which can only give a relative "warning". when a component in your engine fuel or air delivery system starts to act up, a wideband will show you that with clarity, in time to make necessary changes.

    how much does it cost to replace one burned piston?

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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    This is from the 3Bar Racing site :
    Our gage shows everything below .90 volts as too lean, by illuminating a red light. So, at a glance, you know "red is bad, lift throttle". From .90 to .94v, a yellow light is illuminated, indicating that you are "in the zone". You will want to think twice about increasing boost without adding fuel. From .94 to .98v, the green light is illuminated, indicating that you are getting enough fuel and are a little on the rich side. Some people prefer to stay there and enjoy an extra margin of safety, but if you want to start increasing boost, the fuel is there. From .98 volts up, the blue light illuminates, indicating that you are very rich.
    I'm not trying to be argumentitive, just trying to understand. I am moving from a carb setup to a turbo, and the donor car I found has this device. Can I move over as well and tust it, or should I invest in something different. The car won't be used for racing, but I want that ability just in case I feel "froggy"

    -Dave

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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Quote Originally Posted by shelbydave
    This is from the 3Bar Racing site :
    Our gage shows everything below .90 volts as too lean, by illuminating a red light. So, at a glance, you know "red is bad, lift throttle". From .90 to .94v, a yellow light is illuminated, indicating that you are "in the zone". You will want to think twice about increasing boost without adding fuel. From .94 to .98v, the green light is illuminated, indicating that you are getting enough fuel and are a little on the rich side. Some people prefer to stay there and enjoy an extra margin of safety, but if you want to start increasing boost, the fuel is there. From .98 volts up, the blue light illuminates, indicating that you are very rich.
    I'm not trying to be argumentitive, just trying to understand. I am moving from a carb setup to a turbo, and the donor car I found has this device. Can I move over as well and tust it, or should I invest in something different. The car won't be used for racing, but I want that ability just in case I feel "froggy"

    -Dave
    Thats all fine and dandy that they posted that. The problem is that the narrowband o2 is NOT accurate enough to be used in that manner. The range they give, .9-1.0v is a range of 14.4-14.7 afr. Anything more rich than 14.4 is read as 1.0v, so how do you know where you are? Is the car running at 10.0 or at 14.3?

    The point is that you can't take the word of the company selling the product, they want you to buy an o2 gauge from them. A narrow band o2 doesn't have the proper range, I don't care what anyone says. It is not suitable for tuning, or even for safety in my mind since I dont' consider "somewhere lower than 14.4" to be a good safety indicator.

  14. #14

    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    A wideband is a necessary component for a modified car. PERIOD. Trying to rely on a stock narrowband sensor for a reading that is out of it's "range" is asinine.

    I, must admit I have used the narrowband in my younger days in this manner and found that when I put my car on the dyno that was equipped with a wideband I found that I was "off" BIG TIME in regards to my perceived A/F ratio. Most times by @1 point of a/f at 30 psi of boost!

    After, four trips to the dyno I bought a wideband and have never looked back.

    Granted our cars are cheap, but, I would rather spend the money on a Wideband than on a rebuild.

    Beside who wants to "guess" when for less than $300 bucks you could be correct?

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    Garrett booster shadowdude's Avatar
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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Agreed ,i have a EGT gauge AND an Cyberdyne A/F gauge and STILL melted a JE at a short WOT run with only 10psi (other mods) I then started looking into the wide band and thats the rest of the story .I ,myself ,dont want to rely on a volt meter or a marginal reading from a gauge.To each his own ,but here you guys listed some hard proven facts.All reasons why i went with the wide band.

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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    I think if you have datalogged with your wideband you would never want to go back.

    I really couldnt tune the a/f ratio out until I got a laptop to datalog.

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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    I have a Autometer 20 light narrow band O2 gauge in my Shelby Lancer. I though everything was good at 14 psi because my gauge was reading 18 lights at WOT. I brought it to the dyno and found out it was so rich as soon as it spooled up it was off the scale (sub 10:1). The gauge is practically worthless.

  18. #18
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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Next question would be, where to buy a good one?

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    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Jegs has AEM widebands in stock for 280. You can also get in on group buys pretty regularly over on the srtforums. Usual price there is about $250 shipped.

  20. #20

    Re: why the wide band is better than the narrow band

    Quote Originally Posted by tryingbe
    Next question would be, where to buy a good one?
    like TURBOGLH pointed out Jegs and Summit both sell a variety of wideband devices, also go to Innovate Motorsports' website and look at their products.

    i would recommend the AEM device, excellent quality, very simple to hook up, the new kit comes with several gauge faces that you can swap out for the look you want, and it can be read very quickly which is what you want.....here's the unit in an a-pillar pod in an omni:


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