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Thread: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

  1. #1
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Not looking for a "who" can out tech "who" kind of discussion. I know little about turbos other than the principle of using exhaust gases to spin it.
    I read posts about .48 and .63 along with a stage 1,2 or 3 turbine wheel and a 46 or 50 trim.
    In other words, turbos for dummies. I'm sure there are many other that would like to know also.

    Round 1....ding, ding!
    Last edited by black86glhs; 12-20-2008 at 08:43 PM.
    Bryan
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  2. #2
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by black86glhs View Post
    Not looking for a "who" can out tech "who" kind of discussion. I know little about turbos other than the principle of using exhaust gases to spin it.
    I read posts about .48 and .63 along with a stage 1,2 or 3 turbine wheel and a 46 or 50 trim.
    In other words, turbos for dummies. I'm sure there are many other that would like to know also.

    Round 1....ding, ding!
    Wow, you really are a sh*t disturber, aren't you?

    Anyhow, we could go on for hours but in a nutshell, you have the compressor wheel size which is stated as 50 trim, 60 trim etc and then you have housing sizes, IE T3, T4 etc. Those 2 combined determine how much air it can flow, in lbs/hr using charts the manufacter has for us.

    Stage I/II/III etc is the turbine wheel size, Stage I is a stock turbo, stage II a popular upgrade and stage III is next inline, as you go up in stage, the wheel gets heavier and also spool time can increase based on the housing you select which brings us to-

    .48/.63 and higher housings, can't remember but its a measurement using cross sectional area and the smaller housing has more direct flow, think small straw so this will help the turbo spool up faster BUT it will affect top end power, .63 is more of a bigger pipe, spool up is usually a bit later but the top end hit is worth it.

    The stock garrett turbo is a T3 turbo, on both sides, a T3/T4 is a T3 center section and a T4 compressor housing, which is larger so you can make more power, more efficiently as less boost than a similar sized T3 turbo.

    There is more and maybe I made a mistake but we'll start it there.
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  3. #3
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Wow, you really are a sh*t disturber, aren't you?

    Anyhow, we could go on for hours but in a nutshell, you have the compressor wheel size which is stated as 50 trim, 60 trim etc and then you have housing sizes, IE T3, T4 etc. Those 2 combined determine how much air it can flow, in lbs/hr using charts the manufacter has for us.

    Stage I/II/III etc is the turbine wheel size, Stage I is a stock turbo, stage II a popular upgrade and stage III is next inline, as you go up in stage, the wheel gets heavier and also spool time can increase based on the housing you select which brings us to-

    .48/.63 and higher housings, can't remember but its a measurement using cross sectional area and the smaller housing has more direct flow, think small straw so this will help the turbo spool up faster BUT it will affect top end power, .63 is more of a bigger pipe, spool up is usually a bit later but the top end hit is worth it.

    The stock garrett turbo is a T3 turbo, on both sides, a T3/T4 is a T3 center section and a T4 compressor housing, which is larger so you can make more power, more efficiently as less boost than a similar sized T3 turbo.

    There is more and maybe I made a mistake but we'll start it there.
    Other than the first sentence, lol, this is what I was talking about.
    Honestly, I was not trying to start anything. I wanted hard facts about how they are sized, wheel sizes and so on. Keep it coming guys and thanks Simon.....I think?
    Bryan
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  4. #4
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Your welcome,

    A stock garrett is a 50 trim in a T3 cover, TIII is a tad larger, both with .48 housings, which really choke the TIII engine.

    A good upgrade for a stockish engine is a S60 turbo, which is a 60 trim wheel in a T3 cover, stage I wheel and a .63 housing.

    A 46 trim hybrid with a stage I wheel and a .63 housing is another good turbo for a stockish motor, then the next leap is a 50 trim stage II hybrid,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
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    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Your welcome,

    A stock garrett is a 50 trim in a T3 cover
    Come again? {I'm out-teching you }

    Stock compressor is a 50-trim? S60 is a 60-trim is going to confuse people. They see 50-trim and are thinking the wheel that goes into the "E" or "B" compressor housings, and now think the S60 wheel is an upgrade being that it's "larger"
    Quote Originally Posted by 22mopar
    have a look at my feedback on the forum. all positive.

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  6. #6
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    OK, how is A/R calculated?

    What is the difference between t4oe and t4ob (or is it t40e/t40b)?

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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Directconnection View Post
    Come again? {I'm out-teching you }

    Stock compressor is a 50-trim? S60 is a 60-trim is going to confuse people. They see 50-trim and are thinking the wheel that goes into the "E" or "B" compressor housings, and now think the S60 wheel is an upgrade being that it's "larger"
    I am using laymans terms, lol, I did describe earlier about the housing size,
    1989 FWD Turbo Caravan-2.5 TIII, GT35R, auto, a/c, cruise, pwr windows/locks, fully loaded with interior and ran with full exhaust. RETIRED FOR A FEW YEARS! 12.57@104 :O)
    1984 Chev Getaway van, 6.2 Diesel with a remote mounted turbo setup burning WMO-For sale.
    2003 GSW 2.0L TDI, auto, fully loaded, modified, 360K-wife's.
    2004 GSW TDI, 5 speed, fully loaded, modified.

    Aurora ignition wires for sale. Link to info

    Super60 roller cams or custom/billet cams. Link to info

  8. #8
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Directconnection View Post
    Come again? {I'm out-teching you }

    Stock compressor is a 50-trim? S60 is a 60-trim is going to confuse people. They see 50-trim and are thinking the wheel that goes into the "E" or "B" compressor housings, and now think the S60 wheel is an upgrade being that it's "larger"
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous_User View Post
    OK, how is A/R calculated?

    What is the difference between t4oe and t4ob (or is it t40e/t40b)?
    These are some of the same things that came to my mind and I know others. This is why I started the thread. This stuff can get damn confusing. lol.
    Bryan
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    A/R is the Area divided by the Radius. I forget the term, but it's the cavity of sorts in the turbine housing.

    TO4E and TO4B. Different compressor housings, but typically use the same wheels.

    I am not the bestest to describe this as I need to really go back through my memory and am short on time to describe everything correctly!
    Quote Originally Posted by 22mopar
    have a look at my feedback on the forum. all positive.

    Steve

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  10. #10
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    What is the difference between a B and E housing?
    Bryan
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by black86glhs View Post
    Other than the first sentence, lol, this is what I was talking about.
    Honestly, I was not trying to start anything. I wanted hard facts about how they are sized, wheel sizes and so on. Keep it coming guys and thanks Simon.....I think?
    Are you trying to understand how to size a turbo to a given engine? If so, I found this link a pretty easy guide to understanding that concept.
    http://hondaswap.com/forced-inductio...ummies-129194/
    Another link that's a bit more "technical".
    http://www.enginelogics.com/cmaps.html
    Another link that has a breakdown of compressor sizes.
    http://fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/tmodels.html
    A site with a bunch of maps.
    http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

    Should keep you busy reading for a while.

  12. #12
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    The stock turbo is a 50 trim T3 compressor wheel the S60 is a better flowing 60 trim T3 compressor wheel! The stock garrett and S60 turbos have a stage 1 T3 exhaust turbine wheel. The stock garret has a smaller .48 exhaust housing where the S60 uses a larger .63 exhaust housing. There are 3 stages of exhaust wheels to use.

    Hybrids are a T3 exhaust side with a T4 compressor side. So the 46 trim they were talking about in the other thread is a 46 trim T4 compressor wheel (MUCH LARGER THAN THE T3 STUFF). A To4E (3" air intake opening) or a To4B (2.5" air intake opening) compressor cover depend on the T4 wheel you're putting onto the turbo. The E wheels like high pressure low CFM where the B wheels like low pressure high cfm from what maps I have seen. The next step up from the 46 trim is a 50 trim T4 wheel which has a great compressor map and is a good match for our cars.

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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by puppet View Post
    Are you trying to understand how to size a turbo to a given engine? If so, I found this link a pretty easy guide to understanding that concept.
    http://hondaswap.com/forced-inductio...ummies-129194/
    Another link that's a bit more "technical".
    http://www.enginelogics.com/cmaps.html
    Another link that has a breakdown of compressor sizes.
    http://fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/tmodels.html
    A site with a bunch of maps.
    http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

    Should keep you busy reading for a while.

    Read the first link. Decent breakdown of reading a compressor map.

    Second link is not allowed through the firewall at work.

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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    So where does my super 70 fit in?
    SDAC member "It's not the ride, it's the rider."

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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Directconnection View Post
    A/R is the Area divided by the Radius. I forget the term, but it's the cavity of sorts in the turbine housing.

    Pic that shows exactly what is measured for this?

  16. #16
    The moderately moderate moderator Turbo Mopar Staff
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by puppet View Post
    Are you trying to understand how to size a turbo to a given engine? If so, I found this link a pretty easy guide to understanding that concept.
    http://hondaswap.com/forced-inductio...ummies-129194/
    Another link that's a bit more "technical".
    http://www.enginelogics.com/cmaps.html
    Another link that has a breakdown of compressor sizes.
    http://fc3spro.com/TECH/TURBO/tmodels.html
    A site with a bunch of maps.
    http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbotech.html

    Should keep you busy reading for a while.
    I'll get on it. Wasn't really getting into a specific engine/turbo combo, more wanting to learn what terms go with what pieces and why.
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.


  18. #18
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    A/R = area of exhaust inlest divided by distance from center of exhaust inlet to center of turbine wheel.

    Trim = (exducer diameter)^2 / (inducer diameter)^2


    EDIT: That formula for trim is not 100% correct apparently:

    Formula for determining trim:
    (Minor wheel diameter would be the inducer on a compressor wheel and the exducer would be considered the major diameter. For a turbine the minor and major are called the same (small dia = minor, larger dia. = major) but the inducer of a turbine is the major diameter and the exducer would be the minor or smaller dia. Just think like this.. does the wheel "induce" air or "exduce" it........

    [(minor wheel diameter)x(minor wheel diameter) / (major wheel diameter)x (major wheel diameter)] x 100= compressor / turbine wheel trim

    T04E 60 trim
    (inducer = 2.290", exducer = 2.950")

    [(2.290)(2.290)/(2.950)(2.950)] x 100= trim
    (5.2441/8.7025) x 100= trim
    .6026 x 100 = trim
    60= trim

  19. #19
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    The letter designations have to do with the size, shape, pitch, height and amount of blades the compressor wheels have.

  20. #20
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    Re: Lets talk(civilized) about turbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
    The stock turbo is a 50 trim T3 compressor wheel the S60 is a better flowing 60 trim T3 compressor wheel! The stock garrett and S60 turbos have a stage 1 T3 exhaust turbine wheel. The stock garret has a smaller .48 exhaust housing where the S60 uses a larger .63 exhaust housing. There are 3 stages of exhaust wheels to use.

    Hybrids are a T3 exhaust side with a T4 compressor side. So the 46 trim they were talking about in the other thread is a 46 trim T4 compressor wheel (MUCH LARGER THAN THE T3 STUFF). A To4E (3" air intake opening) or a To4B (2.5" air intake opening) compressor cover depend on the T4 wheel you're putting onto the turbo. The E wheels like high pressure low CFM where the B wheels like low pressure high cfm from what maps I have seen. The next step up from the 46 trim is a 50 trim T4 wheel which has a great compressor map and is a good match for our cars.
    To add to the above...

    T3 exhaust whels have 4 stages, stock, Stage II, Stage III and Stage V (no IV)

    T04 comp covers are not dependant on wheel (at least from Turbonetics and many other manufacturers) meaning that you can get almost any T04 wheel in either cover these days. T04B cover is 2.75" inlet and ~ 6.5" OD housing T04E cover is 3" inlet and ~7" OD housing. The B is easier to package cuz it is smaller, the E produces a cooler air charge with the same comp wheel as it is less restrictive.

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