Opinions on Intercoolers

[mcglsr2]

hey everyone, i'm going to be doing several things to the car in the next couple months. one of those is replacing the stock TII IC for a FMIC one. i'll be doing this as time and budget allow, but i've got other things to sort out first. however, i'm doing some upfront research so that when i'm ready to pull the tigger i know what i'm aiming at.

alright, so there are 4 that i'm looking at from treadstone. they seems to be a "cheaper" version of spearco. two of them are horizontal and two are vertical. i'll post a pic and specs and then ask my questions about each:

1) TR6

• core size: 6" X 22" X 3.5"
• core surface area: 132 sq.in.
• hp: 400
• cfm: 600

2) TR8

• core size: 7.8" X 22" X 3.5"
• core surface area: 171.6 sq.in.
• hp: 510
• cfm: 760

3) TRV125

• core size: 6" X 12.5" X 3.5"
• core surface area: 75 sq.in.
• hp: 500
• cfm: ???

4) TRV185

• core size: 6" X 18.48" X 3.5"
• core surface area: 110.9 sq.in.
• hp: 720
• cfm: 1080

i asked the people at treadstone about pressure drop, the reply i got was 1.5 psi drop at max hp/cfm ratings. also, they are all 2.5" inlet/outlet.

so the opinions: my car is stockish now, may or may not be more later, using 700CFM as a theoretical max the car would probably ever see. my preference is for the vertical intercoolers for 2 reasons 1) packaging, having the inlet and outlet will be easier to plumb. i'm not removing the a/c compressor, so i would have to run the pipe all the way back to the driver side. which is not impossible and can be done, just seems easier if the inlet and outlet are already on that side. and 2) the horizontal flow, with shorter and more tubes, increases internal flow area and reduces drag, which should mean lower pressure drop. After all, to paraphrase corky bell, two intercoolers with the same frontal area and same efficiency, one being horizontal the other vertical, the vertical will have a lower pressure drop. which is good. however, the guy i emailed for info on the intercoolers suggested that i go with either the TR6 or TR8 for my setup. i think the TRV125 might be too small, and the TRV is certainly big enough (but too big...i don't want to have to pressurize too large a space?).

if i do some back-of-the-napkin calculations, the results bear out the lower pressure drop on the vertical cores:

• TR6 @ ~300hp -> ~1.125psi drop
• TR8 @ ~300hp -> ~0.88psi drop
• TRV125 @ ~300hp -> ~0.90psi drop
• TRV185 @ ~300hp -> ~0.625psi drop

the TRV185 will most likely have the lowest pressure drop in the hp range that i'll be running. is this intercooler too big? which i/c do you guys think will be good for my setup? car is an 87 csx, with ported exhaust manifold, 3" TU sv, 3" exhaust, aiming for 250whp right now. i know this can be acheived with the stock IC, but with a newer/more efficient I/C i can hopefully achieve this at lower boost pressures. is there really a difference between the horizontal flow vs. the vertical flow? i've always thought the vertical flow was superior, but so many people run the horizontal I/Cs...what do you guys think?

thanks!!

[cordes]

Of the 4 you listed, I would pick the 4th. I think there are other ways to go which are better, but that one is easy to plumb and obviously flows really well. I have one very similar in my omni and it seems to do a great job.

[mcglsr2]

Of the 4 you listed, I would pick the 4th. I think there are other ways to go which are better, but that one is easy to plumb and obviously flows really well. I have one very similar in my omni and it seems to do a great job.

sweet, thanks. the others just seem so small

what other options would you suggest? i'm open to ideas...

[cordes]

I think it's really hard to beat a triple core IC. Three stock coolers welded together with well thought out end tanks are superior to just about anything else that you can stick in there which is the same size.

You can see a triple core unit in comparison to some others if you scroll down here.

http://www.knizefamily.net/russ/auto...a/history.html

[GLHNSLHT2]

I like #4 but the version with the outlet or inlet facing opposite. Personally I find finding a hole for 1 pipe to go through on one side of the a/c/rad on one side and then finding a hole on the other is easier than trying to shove 2 pipes through 1 side. I've done both my Daytona and a buddies Shadow Vert using a cummins and there's just enough room by enlarging an already factory hole to shove a 2.5" pipe through and not have to move anything major (some wiring doesn't count).

For mockup and permenant install on the cold side I get the airbox to TB hoses from 3.0 Chrysler cars. the 87-88 pieces are 2.5" id all the way through and the 89+ neck down right at the TB for use on your stock 46mm TB and to clamp on the turbo outlet. A

After figuring out all the bends with the cheap hoses you'll know what you need in expensive silicone. Though with some Armorall they'll last a year or 2 on the hot side and forever on the cold side and look good. I've gone to silicone on the hot side but used their shape to figure out what I need and left them on the cold side.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I like #4 but the version with the outlet or inlet facing opposite. Personally I find finding a hole for 1 pipe to go through on one side of the a/c/rad on one side and then finding a hole on the other is easier than trying to shove 2 pipes through 1 side. I've done both my Daytona and a buddies Shadow Vert using a cummins and there's just enough room by enlarging an already factory hole to shove a 2.5" pipe through and not have to move anything major (some wiring doesn't count).

For mockup and permenant install on the cold side I get the airbox to TB hoses from 3.0 Chrysler cars. the 87-88 pieces are 2.5" id all the way through and the 89+ neck down right at the TB for use on your stock 46mm TB and to clamp on the turbo outlet. A

After figuring out all the bends with the cheap hoses you'll know what you need in expensive silicone. Though with some Armorall they'll last a year or 2 on the hot side and forever on the cold side and look good. I've gone to silicone on the hot side but used their shape to figure out what I need and left them on the cold side.

[1 bad day]

def the last one...I love that style on the turbo dodges because of there design...

[Juggy]

how does #4 flow better then #1 and 2???

they both have more surface area, and larger core??

[Tony Hanna]

how does #4 flow better then #1 and 2???

they both have more surface area, and larger core??

The air is passing through 8 really long tubes on #1 and 27 short tubes on #4.

[Mopar318]

I like #4 but the version with the outlet or inlet facing opposite. Personally I find finding a hole for 1 pipe to go through on one side of the a/c/rad on one side and then finding a hole on the other is easier than trying to shove 2 pipes through 1 side. I've done both my Daytona and a buddies Shadow Vert using a cummins and there's just enough room by enlarging an already factory hole to shove a 2.5" pipe through and not have to move anything major (some wiring doesn't count).

For mockup and permenant install on the cold side I get the airbox to TB hoses from 3.0 Chrysler cars. the 87-88 pieces are 2.5" id all the way through and the 89+ neck down right at the TB for use on your stock 46mm TB and to clamp on the turbo outlet. A

After figuring out all the bends with the cheap hoses you'll know what you need in expensive silicone. Though with some Armorall they'll last a year or 2 on the hot side and forever on the cold side and look good. I've gone to silicone on the hot side but used their shape to figure out what I need and left them on the cold side.

I have experimented with silicone, home depot couplers, rubber coupler, and just radiator hose. Radiator hose OWNS anything else no doubt about it. The mustang at work uses 4" truck radiator hose for it turbo cold side with its 35psi.

[cordes]

I have experimented with silicone, home depot couplers, rubber coupler, and just radiator hose. Radiator hose OWNS anything else no doubt about it. The mustang at work uses 4" truck radiator hose for it turbo cold side with its 35psi.

I would agree. Now that I have a tractor supply place right near me that sells all diameters for really cheap, I don't think I'm going back.

[Tony Hanna]

I would agree. Now that I have a tractor supply place right near me that sells all diameters for really cheap, I don't think I'm going back.

I'm glad you mentioned that! I'm in TSC often (even bought the paint for my car there) but somehow never managed to notice that they sell it.

[mcglsr2]

how does #4 flow better then #1 and 2???

they both have more surface area, and larger core??

The air is passing through 8 really long tubes on #1 and 27 short tubes on #4.

that's what surprises me so much on a lot of these cars i see with the big horizontal intercoolers. the vertical type, using a smaller frontal area (and thus surface area) will easily outflow them (and then even more so at an equivalent surface area), for the reason Tony stated: it's all about internal flow area. ...except that it's not all about internal flow area. it's a trade off. the horizontal i/c's, due to the fact that the charge is in the tubes longer, there's more time for heat (and thus more heat) to get wisked away by ambient cross flow. however, the longer in the tube, the more pressure drop you are going to get. in the end, it's a balance between pressure drop vs. efficiency. the horizontal i/c's will tend have a little better efficiency, while the vertical ones will have a better (lower) pressure drop. it can be argued either way, my view on it is that if you are shooting for 21psi, and the turbo has to operate at 23psi to get you 21psi in the manifold, that 2 additional psi is going to heat up the charge a lot, over and above what it would have been at 21psi. the lower the pressure drop, the less the turbo has to work at achieving the boost goal, so less extraneous heat that is added to the charge. whatever the vertical i/c looses in efficiency is made up for by this IMO. of course, everyone seems to run horizontal i/c's, so maybe i'm just full of crap.

[cordes]

I'm glad you mentioned that! I'm in TSC often (even bought the paint for my car there) but somehow never managed to notice that they sell it.

Sorry, I didn't mean tractor supply chain stores. I have a big Case dealer that is down the road. The tractor supply stores might have it though.

[Tony Hanna]

that's what surprises me so much on a lot of these cars i see with the big horizontal intercoolers. the vertical type, using a smaller frontal area (and thus surface area) will easily outflow them (and then even more so at an equivalent surface area), for the reason Tony stated: it's all about internal flow area. ...except that it's not all about internal flow area. it's a trade off. the horizontal i/c's, due to the fact that the charge is in the tubes longer, there's more time for heat (and thus more heat) to get wisked away by ambient cross flow. however, the longer in the tube, the more pressure drop you are going to get. in the end, it's a balance between pressure drop vs. efficiency. the horizontal i/c's will tend have a little better efficiency, while the vertical ones will have a better (lower) pressure drop. it can be argued either way, my view on it is that if you are shooting for 21psi, and the turbo has to operate at 23psi to get you 21psi in the manifold, that 2 additional psi is going to heat up the charge a lot, over and above what it would have been at 21psi. the lower the pressure drop, the less the turbo has to work at achieving the boost goal, so less extraneous heat that is added to the charge. whatever the vertical i/c looses in efficiency is made up for by this IMO. of course, everyone seems to run horizontal i/c's, so maybe i'm just full of crap.

I think that's why the multi-core coolers built out of stock cores work so well. They have a vertical flow path, so if you get 3 or 4 of them welded together, you've got alot of tubes for the air to pass through (good flow). They're also pretty tall, so the ambient air spends more time in contact with the pressurized air (better cooling). Seems like a pretty good balance.

[Tony Hanna]

Sorry, I didn't mean tractor supply chain stores. I have a big Case dealer that is down the road. The tractor supply stores might have it though.

Gotcha. I'll have to look though. It makes sense that they might sell it.

[mcglsr2]

I think that's why the multi-core coolers built out of stock cores work so well. They have a vertical flow path, so if you get 3 or 4 of them welded together, you've got alot of tubes for the air to pass through (good flow). They're also pretty tall, so the ambient air spends more time in contact with the pressurized air (better cooling). Seems like a pretty good balance.

plus with 3 or 4 of them together, you'll get a really good frontal area. i can see them performing well

[Mopar318]

Gotcha. I'll have to look though. It makes sense that they might sell it.

Iv never seen a tractor supply store that sells radiator hose that you could use. NAPA truck sore will sell anything you need. You can get a bad --- curvy hose for 30 bucks and make a bunch of couplers from it.

[Tony Hanna]

Iv never seen a tractor supply store that sells radiator hose that you could use. NAPA truck sore will sell anything you need. You can get a bad --- curvy hose for 30 bucks and make a bunch of couplers from it.

I used to buy the Felpro "Green Stripe" hose from a parts store that also sells some big truck stuff. It's worked really well for me in the past, but I remember it being a little pricey. I always tried to make as many of the bends out of metal as I could and just use the hose for couplers. That always seemed to be the most cost effective way to go since I could get a guy I know at an exhaust shop to bend the hard pipes out of drops that were otherwise going in the scrap bin.

[Tony Hanna]

plus with 3 or 4 of them together, you'll get a really good frontal area. i can see them performing well

Thinking along those lines, I wonder how one of these would do?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GODSP...QQcmdZViewItem
25 tubes in a vertical flow arrangement 17.5" long x 11" tall x 3" thick (core dimensions). That puts it at 4 tubes wider than a twin core stocker, the same thickness, and 1/2" shorter.

The price is right too. It comes in at around the same price after shipping as the TRV125 does before shipping.

Edit: Here's another one that might be worth considering:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TURBO...QQcmdZViewItem
It's also a vertical flow cooler with the same dimensions as the TRV185 (18.5" x 6" x 3.5" with 2.5" I/O). The price is right on that one too @ $192 shipped.