Intermediate Shaft, Oil Pump Failure - Advice?

[jonnyb]

Well, I finally got to pulling the pan and valve covers off of the Spirit today, so that I could take a look at what caused the loss of oil pressure. Just as I figured it would be, it was the intermediate shaft and oil pump gears all stripped out. Here's two pics (sorry about quality - but I think most of us know what these failures look like anyway):




I took a look at the cams and they look fine. I also pulled #3 and 4 rod caps off and the crank looks fine, but the bearings definitely have evidence of metal fragments scraping them all up. This didn't surprise me because when I drained the oil it had a gritty feel to it.

My question is this: Can I get away with maybe just doing a rod bearing change to clean them up, and put a new oil pump/i-shaft in it, or do I pull it all apart and do it right? I would normally do it right, but this motor was completely rebuilt about 10K miles ago so I'd rather not rip the head off and pull the whole thing apart.

I'm concerned that the main bearings might be scuffed enough where I'll lose some oil pressure, or even worse, if I don't pull it all apart, that there's debris that gets left in there and takes out something down the road.

Who has had an i-shaft/oil pump failure and just replaced those and got away with it?

Thanks,

Jon

[tryingbe]

Use MARCO setting on your camera when you're try to take a close up pictures, otherwise, it's going to be out of focus.

[turbovanman²]

Use MARCO setting on your camera when you're try to take a close up pictures, otherwise, it's going to be out of focus.

Whose MARCO? a buddy? lol!


There are a few reasons floating around for failure-timing belt tension, int shaft bearings, bad oil pump and I believe sometimes using a new pump on an old gear goes it. Sometimes the rebuilders don't look at the shaft for gear wear and reuse it, bad idea.

I would get the int shaft out and check the bearings first, if they are fubared, it would be easier to remove the engine and have them replaced unless you buy the tool as you need some room. Check the mains, you can replace all but one and honestly, that one never seems to get damaged, replace the rods, button it back up, run some cheap oil, go around the block, let it get hot, drain and refill, change the filters of course with your favourite brand.

[jonnyb]

Thanks for the info. I pulled the int shaft out and the bearings look OK.

I'm really thinking about doing just what you said Simon, but I don't want to have to end up pulling the whole motor apart in a couple weeks because one stupid piece of metal ends up floating around in there and does serious damage.

That's why I was asking how many people have done what you suggest, and how many had failures right after that. If that is what most people do, and the results are usually OK, I'd really like to go that route so I can get this car back up and running ASAP.

Oh - and tryingbe...my digital camera is from like 1997 - the only settings it has are flash on/flash off...LOL!!!

[jonnyb]

OK - I have a couple of good intermediate shafts here and was wondering if there is any difference for the T3. The one that's shot that came out of the T3 is really lightweight compared to the others that I have. It has "MEX" stamped on it. I have one that's really heavy duty and has some kind of cam/counter balance on it that I haven't seen on other shafts.

Here's a couple pics. The first one is all three shafts - torn up MEX one on left, one out of an 88 T1 in the middle and one that I'm not sure what it came out of on the right.


Here's a better shot of the chewed up one (you can see how lightweight it looks even compared to the 88 T1 next to it):


Another shot of all three (you can see the lobe on the unkown heavy duty shaft):


The heavier one with the lobe on it even has wider teeth that seem to be beefier as well:


I was going to get a new oil pump and use one of these shafts. They're both in good shape, but like I said before, I'm not sure if the T3 shaft is special in any way. If it's not, and I should be able to use one of these, which one should I use? Anyone ever seen one with a lobe on it before? I'm thinking it's an older shaft that was maybe for mechanical fuel pump motors, but the lobe is unfinished so I'm not sure.

Thanks,

Jon

[zin]

You can use pretty much any IM shaft, the'll all function the same. The one with a lobe on it is a remnant of or came out of a carb'd engine, it's the cam lobe used to run the mech. fuel pump.

I'd advise going through the whole thing. I fixed mine, new IM shaft bearings, new IM shaft and pump, but something got in the pump and stopped it and the idiot driving it managed to ignore all the warnings (light, gauge, noise, etc) and seized my engine. Upon inspection a small piece of steel/iron got sucked up into the pump and stopped it. Yours looks like mine the 1st time it happened and that was due to worn bearings mis-alighning the pump and IM shaft gears. The two gears were just wearing on each other and slowly creating a crescent shaped wear pattern in both gears until they just didn't mesh enough to keep turning the pump. Replace all those parts and it wouldn't hurt to replace any suspect bearings (rod and/or main), and VERY thoroughly clean the pan and bottom end. Any little bit (.030") of iron or steel will lock up the pump, they are not very tolerant of debris.

Mike

[glht_omni]

i know jonny mopar had a r/t car that lost pressure and was shut off immediately supposedly by the PO, he just swapped the i shaft, bearing and oil pump and got to drive it without issue.
since it was rebuilt already and the way you are thinking, i would just get a chryo treated i shaft a new bearing and a new mopar oil pump. swapping the rod bearings wouldnt be a bad idea.
i bought a 88 es shadow T1 with a light rod knock, swapped just the one bad bearing and beat the snot out of it for 5k miles before i heard the death rattle come back.

good luck, and take care of her, she was my first.....r/t

[jonnyb]

Hey Josh - didn't know this was your first r/t.

Unfortunately, I didn't really shut it down right away. The oil pressure gauge went to zero and I pulled over and shut it down, but then I checked the oil and it was fine and started it back up and didn't hear any noise (not even a lifter tick) so I figured it was a bad pressure sensor or something with the wiring. So I drove it about a mile and then I heard the lifters start to scream. That's when I shut it down.

There definitely wasn't any rod knock or anything, but it was run for a good bit before it was shut down and towed to my house.

As far as going the easy route, I pretty much abandoned that idea. I have the tranny off and plan on pulling the crank this afternoon. I'm going with all new bottom end bearings, but I'm going to leave the head on and just try to really flush the motor with the bottom end out of it.

After I get it back together, I'll start it and let it idle for a minute or two and then I'm going to drop the pan again and clean it all out. Then I'll put fresh oil and filter in again and drive it for a couple hundred miles and then change the oil and filter again. Hopefully I'll be good to go and will have her up and running strong again for the winter.

I loved driving the car last winter - comfy, good in the snow, and 32 mpg

Jon

[CaptMoe]

I loved driving the car last winter - comfy, good in the snow, and 32 mpg

Jon

Anyone else drive their TIII in the winter?
I'd be leery of letting my car get any road salt on it...

[Turbo3Iroc]

My Spirit R/T is my daily driver....

I just take it through the auto car wash that sprays the chassis every 2 weeks. It is rusting more than when I got it but this car has been a city car/daily driver all its life.

[jonnyb]

Moe - this car has 187K on the clock, the body is rough (not rusted - just crappy paint and a bunch of dents) and there is already rot on the rockers and bottoms of the doors (floors themselves are actually rust free though). So I don't really think that it's any kind of collectible and have no problem driving it during the winter.

Now, my 75K mile IROC R/T (or any of my numbered cars for that matter) will never see winter driving.

Jon

[turbovanman²]

Me, but my 1/4's are getting bad,

[glht_omni]

yup it was my first r/t! i didnt drive as far as you to go get her, but i did do 20 hours round trip for it.

i did not want to drive that white spirit r/t in the winter, but i was forced to a couple of times, it did do good in the fresh powder on my circle driveway i never plowed.

it wasnt much fun driving to work at 3 am though, NO HEAT! good thing you put a heater core in it, i was dreading it.

i will NOT drive my current r/t in any snow, sleet, freezing rain , etc. its already hibernating and only has some light oranging spots on the rear sway bar and thats it.

i felt really bad about selling my other red one to a girl that was going to drive it year round as a daily driver. it didnt even have the oranging on anything, but after stalling her cash in hand for 8 days with no down payments to save it, it had to go.

[Lotashelbys]

Anyone else drive their TIII in the winter?
I'd be leery of letting my car get any road salt on it...

I had a beater Spirit R/T I drove last winter that I went through the motor just before snow hit and it was un-believable. Only time I ever opened the hood was to check the oil. It strated every time even when it was super cold. It was a little loud until the oil got where it was supposed to go but after that was good. It had Blizzaks on the front which helped out alot....



As for the I-shaft,try to find one with the P/N starting with 4667 I think the rest is 4667167 but cant remember off the top of my head. Too loose ot timing belt tension is death on the I-shaft remember. I also think putting the idler pulley on the other side of the run between the intake cam gear and the I-shaft gear will solve alot of these I-shaft failures.

[CaptMoe]

I had a pair of Blizzaks on my '89 Shadow ES. Great snow tires.

I have no doubt the car can handle the winter. God knows my Shadow got me thru alot of them. I'm just worried about accelerating any deterioration...

[Xtrempickup]

i drive my car in the winter every so often, only because i need to move it on certain days for street cleaning so il take it to work

[turbovanman²]

If and when I ever get my R/T running, I'll most likely use that for my winter car and park the van.