Lancer Shelbys re-maiden voyage at the 1/4

[Mike M]

Tried your latest cal. It has richened it up, now into the 11s but still touched 10s at high rpm. I noticed some knock mid range so I flipped it back to the previous cal and while listening I could hear some very slight knock still mid range as well, just as boost as coming on mostly, once I'm fully spooled and pulling it seems ok. Do you think we should drop the timing out some, should I back my timing to 10^ base?

I was a bit busy tonight, and will be a bit busy tomorrow too but I fully intend on getting a stock regulator and a knock sensor in this thing tomorrow. Also need to wire it up so my laptop and scanner can both be run at the same time.

I then checked my decel vacuum, its 22". The newest cal still didn't cut my decel fuel... it stayed 13s under decel.

I have a progressive meth kit, I have it set at 5psi start, ~14psi full. It is a 5gph nozzle, using the devils own nozzle selector program it is optimal for my engine size/rpm/boost.

I also noticed on tip in throttle (at an idle or cruising) my AFRs lean out hard (17-18) then rise back up... I don't think its anything serious as its non-boost conditions it just seemed a bit odd, I don't recall my FWD cal doing that... maybe it did, I know I'm paying more attention now that I am playing with it more.

I checked codes just to be sure, I pull 12,31,35,36,55. All non-issues. One is my rad fan relay, which works fine and I use a manual fan switch anyway. Two others are my purge and wg solenoid as they are currently not connected. I am considering re-wiring my WG solenoid back in and running electronic boost control with my tuning capabilities now, do you use the factory boost control? And if I do that I'll put a resistor inline with my purge solenoid to clear that code, then my CEL might stay off - which brings me to my next question, if my CEL is on constantly (which it is) will it still flash for knock? Cause it hasn't flashed at all and I'm pretty damn sure its been detonating =)

Thanks again Matt, you are a big help I hope we can get something working!

[moparzrule]

OK atleast we are making progress. So you broke into the 11's WITH the meth kit on correct? What do you have your base fuel pressure set at now?

When you say mid range knock, is this at WOT or part throttle? Also need to know what RPM and how much boost you were in when you hear it. Keep your timing at 12, I'll make some adjustments.

Still decel fuel? I don't even know how thats possible, I got down to zero with anything more than 20'' of vacuum. Thats why you get the tip in lean condition.

[moparzrule]

if my CEL is on constantly (which it is) will it still flash for knock? Cause it hasn't flashed at all and I'm pretty damn sure its been detonating =)

Thanks again Matt, you are a big help I hope we can get something working!

No it won't flash if it's staying on all the time.

Have you checked you plugs at all?

Here's another cal. Pulled about 3 degree's out of midrange, and more fuel out. Not sure if this one will fix the decel fueling but I tried something else.

What base fuel pressure are you running now?

[Aries_Turbo]

seriously mike, get the knock sensor thing working ASAP, before all else. make sure that the voltage rises as the RPM's rise.

if you can hear it and we know that the voltage isnt rising, then the computer would have pulled 3-5deg of timing at that point.

i just dont want to see another thread "it popped "

Brian

[Mike M]

I know I know! I'm going out for supper tonight, when I'm done the first thing I'm doing is a stock regulator (I never really liked the accufab, and at this point I don't think I need it) and putting in a different knock sensor.

Do you know what voltage range I should be seeing on the knock sensor? How high should it get? Like a 0-5 rangeish? I know its not a voltage referenced sensor, I just don't know what I should be seeing out of it!

Thanks again!

[Aries_Turbo]

you have to read it through the scanner. KNKV or something like that.... thats at least what mine says.

it should range from 0 at low revs/boost to around 3.6v at higher revs and higher boost.

Matt, you really should change his values back to stock 2.5L for the knock from rpm's curve for now. its really too aggressive for someone who it just starting out and given the amount of timing you have in the cal.

Brian

[moparzrule]

Matt, you really should change his values back to stock 2.5L for the knock from rpm's curve for now. its really too aggressive for someone who it just starting out and given the amount of timing you have in the cal.

Brian

I have substantially less timing in his cal than I had in mine, and I ran stock cast mahles. I also had the knock table even higher than that one too. I seriously doubt I have more timing in the higher boost than the stage 5 cal from FWD does. I just have tons more in vacuum and low boost which isn't dangerous.
You should see the knock table with my 2.2 cal that I'm running now

[Aries_Turbo]

yeah timing in the non dangerous places is ok but lessening the sensitivity of the knock table isnt a good thing to do.

retuning the knock curve to the engine by datalogging at the boost level that you want to run with less timing and race gas to find the noise curve is fine, but it doesnt look like you are doing that.

brake boost the car in 2nd or third gear (with the timing retarded a little and the race gas in) so that the revs rise slowly (more datalogging samples) and so that the engine is really loaded while datalogging the knock voltage value with a scanner or SMEClog to get the noise curve of the engine. set the knock threshold table to 5-10% above that. thats the proper way to set that curve. not just raising it up till you think its good. thats just dangerous.

Brian

[moparzrule]

Well honestly I couldn't get EGT's below 1700 until I did that, no matter what I did with fuel it was just all timing issues. The light would come on, so timing was maxxed out with that knock table. Saw the cal that Rob did for me, he had the knock sensitivity a good bit more so I took it to there. Got more timing in, that got the EGT's down to like 1600. So I brought it up to where it's at there, got it down to 1550 and thats good enough. Now my 2.2 cal, hehe.

[Aries_Turbo]

with the g-head (slow burn) and the fast pressure rise of the 2.5L (long stroke) the combustion event is too long to keep it all in the combustion chamber and it ends up finishing up in the exhaust manifold.

if you do the datalog with safety factors in place, you can set up a proper knock threshold curve for that combination and have more timing. i have a feeling that you would end up making the curve less sensitive anyway but you would be setting it up the proper way.

you can test if you have inaudible knock with the knock curve how you have it set up.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1555006


Brian

[moparzrule]

with the g-head (slow burn) and the fast pressure rise of the 2.5L (long stroke) the combustion event is too long to keep it all in the combustion chamber and it ends up finishing up in the exhaust manifold.

if you do the datalog with safety factors in place, you can set up a proper knock threshold curve for that combination and have more timing. i have a feeling that you would end up making the curve less sensitive anyway but you would be setting it up the proper way.

you can test if you have inaudible knock with the knock curve how you have it set up.
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1555006


Brian

Makes sense, but if that was 100% true than increasing timing would never low EGT's unless you advanced it to the point the engine would grenade a piston at 2 PSI boost.
If I got EGT's in check, and not busting pistons, I don't really see what the big deal is. My advice is to just check your plugs often. I've had black speckles on the plugs tons of times, but I had the light going off. This was during my ''trial and error'' period. But even during that period I never even broke a cast piston.
I think he's being smart about it, I do my initial tuning at about 15 PSI because it's pretty safe there. Really hard to break a piston at 15 PSI, you almost have to work at it LOL.
I would recommend fixing the stuff thats leaving his CEL light on ASAP, this way you know if it's getting detonation. Right now, relying on ear to hear detonation is not cool. THe knock sensor will pick up detonation long before you hear it, and if you are running 20+ PSI boost and hear detonation thats gonna be too late at that point.

[Aries_Turbo]

i harp on it cause its the proper way of doing things, will make the cals more precise and safer and lessen the amount of blown engines over time.

plus its easy. scanner/smeclog and and hour or less and you can have the knock threshold curve dialed into your car specifically.

Brian

[Mike M]

Update time.

Didn't get to do anything last night, wasted time unfortunately and now have only today to play with the cals.

I loaded up your cal right off that bat when I went out this morning, it still starts rough but thats not a big concern at this point as it runs fine otherwise. I installed a different knock sensor, crimped the connector so its a bit tighter... old sensor had some oil on the stud (from before I put a vent hose on my valve cover) that may have been the issue but installed a different one anyway. I also installed a stock fuel pressure regulator. Then bought my lighter plug splitter so I can use my scanner and laptop at the same time. Then went for a short little drive...

... knock knock! Yep, latest cal is still knocking. I can very very very slightly hear it, but with the scanner as soon as I hit full throttle/boost it says YES and reads voltage now. I didn't keep driving it, just a few short pulls and all knocked.

You mention you have alot of timing in low boost and even in vacuum, but on the stock 89 cals don't they retard timing in vacuum to act as a anti-lag? Is that at all incorporated in this cal?

I think we have a problem, I should have more than enough octane between my 94 and methanol and should never ever knock at only 14psi. I know our setups were very similar but obviously something has to be out to lunch here. I'm not saying its specifically your cal, maybe something with my setup itself.

If we can't get something worked out this afternoon (if you can even work your magic) I'll have to go back to the FWD cal and play with it, back off base timing and see what I can do.

Thanks both you guys, I appreciate this so much!

[Mike M]

Went for another short little blast even with knock just to give you a better idea. Fueling is back in the 10s and hit 10 flat at 5500RPM. This may be due to my stock regulator but I just trust it working better than the Accufab... I can't remember exactly what it was but I never liked using it back in the day, the reason it got installed on this setup this year was for mod points when I went to a car show, lol. With the tuning of the fuel now I don't think its necessary to have it.

Thanks again.

[moparzrule]

Even with my latest cal the fuel is still in the 10's???

And I'm shocked you are getting so much knock. What plugs are you running and what gap?
I have 2 other 2.5/G head cal's I'm tuning for other people and you have the LEAST aggressive timing.

[Mike M]

I installed a stock regulator which would have bumped fuel pressure a few PSI. Don't forget the meth, even with the previous cal it still dipped in the 10s at high RPM... just not 10 flat.

I run NGK GR5s, gapped at 030. They are new since last week. They are about equivalent to the RN9YCs.

[moparzrule]

I have 20% less fuel in boost in your cal than my *2.2*/g head cal and I run a stock regulator. Damn, maybe try turning off the meth and see where you are at. Perhaps turn down the boost too to like 12 PSI just in case a lean condition would arise. I need to know how much this meth makes a difference.
Again very strange on the knock. Are you 100% sure it's detonation knock and not a different sound? Sometimes other stuff sets off the knock sensor too and/or sounds like knock. Like one time I had a very worn out guide, and the valve ''slapped'' the seat on the way back up making the knock sensor detect knock. Not saying you have a worn guide, just giving an example of something else making the knock sensor go off.

[moparzrule]

Here, I took some timing and more fuel out of this one. Try this out, although I would use meth with this cal.
I guess you wouldn't want to try no meth with the other cal if you are getting knock.

[Mike M]

Turned off my meth, turned boost down a few turns (10-11psi). Went for many 3rd-4th gear pulls.

At first I was glancing at my scanner and did not notice any knock, started watching other gauges. My AFR @ 4000RPM is ~10.9, by 5500RPM it drops to ~10.1. This is the same through repetitive 3rd-4th gear pulls. My EGTs remain ~1400F. I hit full (10-11psi) at ~3000RPM. Coolant temps are steady and cool, nothing out of the ordinary. Its a decent cool day here, just real windy.

I could not hear any audible knock at all but paid attention to my scanner for several more pulls. I did notice that sometimes through both 3rd and 4th gear at 4500RPM+ it would say YES, it seemed to always do it in 4th... 3rd most the time but not always. Nothing audible though. This is ridiculous if it is truly knocking at that boost level... wow.

I don't think there is any unusual noises that would set off my knock sensor but I'm not saying that it can't be happening. The shortblock is ~10k kms and runs awesome, the head setup has under 20k kms and is all new minus the cam/rockers but no noises from the motor at all. Also note I do have an adj cam gear, its set 4^ off to compensate for the 88 TII cam and round tooth gears (I can't even remember if it was advanced or retarded, heh). The only noise this car does make is noticable at an idle with my foot off the clutch, my transmission makes a rattle noise but goes away once clutch is pushed in. Otherwise this car is quite minus the squeaks and rattles caused by the poly front mount, solid bobble strut and poly-filled side mounts.

Speaking of which, I need to fix up my bobble strut.. I'm going to work on that then check back, if I don't have any updates I'm going to switch my FWD stg5 chip back in the ecu.

Thanks again, this is bugging the hell outta me too!

[Mike M]

I see you updated while I was writing my post. I will try this cal first... plugging in meth and loading this cal asap.