Serious coolant loss, but where's it going?

[cellar dweller]

OK, a while back the temp gauge pegged. Pulled into Walmart lot, added 1.5 gallons 50/50 mix, drove home (3 miles), wound up adding another 1.5 gallons.
Started it, steam from behind engine + lots billowing from tailpipe + radiator starts leaking when pressurized. Water pump intermittently screeches, but not for the first 2 min or so. Was gonna pull the drivetrain & dump the shell, but I got adventurous today.

Car gas been sitting for 2 months, I fired it up today for compression test:
125-130-130-125. Compression's good, spark plugs good, no coolant in oil or oil in coolant. Radiator was empty in <5 min. of running but the driveway was bone dry! Barely noticeable steam vapors from tailpipe >5 min after shutdown.

OK, obviously the car is burning all the coolant but from WHERE? Nothing obvious externally...I may try jacking it up & running it over the weekend but I doubt I'll find anything.

[deuce dodge]

Easy ... your #4 cylinder has a crack leak......as the head heats up it expands and spreads a little causing a small leak.....as the car set a while the crack gunked and hardened...once you start riding her hard again she will spring a leak........

might even turn out to be a head gasket on # 4 cylinder....slight leak.

good luck

deuce

[cordes]

I agree with the cracked head theory. My roomate drove for about 15mi. with the temp gauge peged. That was one tough little motor to hold out for that long. We got her up and going for about $100 though. Not too bad considdering the abuse. It has gone for a few thousand miles now without a problem.

[cellar dweller]

Is there anything else it could be? I've known that it was a non-turbo head anyway (no allen plug on top of thermostat housing); since compression was consistent I was hoping I'd not have to pull it. I do have a complete good upper end from a '90 T1, but...

If there's no other likely solution, I'll (for the moment) be yanking the drivetrain. Car had no heat before it "done blowed up;" radiator leaks now, PS pump whines, soft brake pedal (but does stop well), floorboard holes & no e-brake, exhaust falling off now, passenger window doesn't work, passenger speakers don't work, A/C has slow leak since November, water pump noisy now, etc.

Way too much time to fix all the nuisance stuff, never mind $$$. It's ('89 Spirit LE T1/auto) taking up space that will be filled with a Daytona as soon as it's gone, it would take up time that is earmarked for my Lebaron 'vert. I can't get a good A413 + short 2.5 CB for what I could get by selling it as-is.

It's supposed to be no warmer than 42 for the next 7 days, so I may change my mind by the time it gets warmer out...

[GLHSKEN]

No other thing. It is a crack in the chamber.... I've had it on 2 cars.

[Turbodave]

It could be a crack in the chamber, but let me share an experience I had last week and see if it sounds similar....

This was on a 2.5L TBI Dakota. 2 weeks ago, buddy calls me from a parking lot where his truck won't start, I go over there, give it a jump and no luck, the thing is acting like the motor is siezed. Try turning the engine over by hand grabbing onto the crank pulley and twisting, can't go clockwise so I try counterclockwise thinking maybe it's just the engine compression being stronger than my weak self. It turns counterclockwise and then turns fine clockwise. Truck no starts up no problem and runs fine, there was a puff of white smoke out the tailpipe, but it was cold out so we didn't think too much of it.

A week later he asks why his temp gauge is jumping around and the truck is using antifreeze. I suspect a headgasket and loan him my compression tester to confirm that theory. He calls back a few days later, 130,140,140,140. Not too bad, certainly not like what I've seen with other blown gaskets. He rents a car to drive to work since the truck is using a couple gallons a day and drops it off at my house.

I top off the coolant in the truck and start it up in my driveway, let it run for about 20 min and notice the temp gauge is jumping around. A little vapor from the tailpipe, but nothing unusual for a 30deg morning. I drive the truck around the block and beat on it a little, no smoke. Park it in the drive and shut it down so I can move the wife's car out of the garage.

About 5minutes later start the truck up, big cloud of white smoke out of the tailpipe on startup and then back to normal. Run truck for a few minutes and shut it off, pull #1 plug (90% of the blown HG's I've seen have been on #1). Look inside the cylinder with a flashlight, and sure enough it's filling up with coolant right before my eyes. I can see a stream of coolant pissing in from the front right corner of the cylinder.

I pulled the head on the truck and the gasket was obviously blown, right in the corner of #1 where they always seem to go. The fire ring was pushed out into the combustion area but must have been acting like a check valve of sorts and keeping the compression numbers up. Checked the head for cracks and warpage and all was good, had the typical cracks between the valves, and tiny cracks from the crossdrilled ports to the regular coolant ports, but nothing that would allow coolant into the combustion chambers.

Now, the oil on this vehicle did get to look like a diarhea milkshake, but he also had been driving the truck for weeks with this problem.

Just thought I'd share since it sounds like a similar experience your having and could potentially be the same problem.

Many of the 89 model turbo cars came without the bleed plug in the top of the cylinder head. My 89 shadow, voyager and two daytonas I parted out have all been that way. To verify whether or not it's a turbo head look for the the "TS" stamp on the driver side beneath the cam seal. The turbo heads all had tapered shrouds and got this stamp.

[turbovanman²]

I agree with Turbodave, sounds like the typical headgasket, usually at #1 cylinder. The gasket is gone enough to let pressure into the cooling system and hence the no heat and pressurized cooling system, but it hasn't gone enough to show up, see it all the time at my shop.

[cellar dweller]

The '90 head from my van does have a stamp, TS and CD stamped below that. The '89 has no stamp, only a 'carat,' looks like ">" only angled 45' down pointing at the driver's side rear corner of the head.

So the '89 head is "wrong" and will have problems regardless. '89 CB + '90 head = basically good engine now, can rebuild properly over the summer. Spirit's A413 is good, van's A413 is going into the Lebaron ASAP. Lebaron A413 can be rebuilt at my leisure so I'll have two spares eventually.

Clark is waiting patiently for me to make room, then I'm bringing home one of his Daytonas ('87, t-top, T1/auto). The Spirit was gonna go to my niece...I have a few parts to fix the other problems, but I'd still need some parts and, most important, a bunch of time which is at a premium! The Daytona, OTOH, is at least DD capable now so I can get around until the Lebaron's up, then I can decide how crazy to build the Daytona, or leave it alone & go 5-spd van hunting.

Is it Ron's or Lowell's R/T that got smashed? Perhaps the body shell can be used for repair, it'll be on SDAC-Chicago mailing list for a very low price eventually.

Non-running, wonky brakes/steering and rusted out underneath it's worth what, $300? $200? $0.50?

Everyone else who replied: thanks, even though it's bad news that I didn't really want to hear Simplifies things though.

[turbovanman²]

The '90 head from my van does have a stamp, TS and CD stamped below that. The '89 has no stamp, only a 'carat,' looks like ">" only angled 45' down pointing at the driver's side rear corner of the head.

So the '89 head is "wrong" and will have problems regardless.

TS means Tapered Shroud and is the correct one for a turbo model. They say that a non TS on a turbo engine increases detonation but I haven't noticed as have others. I forget what CD means. Also, either head if rebuilt may or may not have the correct Turbo exhaust valves.

[Turbodave]

Simon, the "CD" stands for cross drilled, simple enough...

I've run TBI heads with turbo valves in them on a few cars with no noticeable differences in detonation sensitivity. From what I've seen the non-crossdrilled heads seem to be less crack prone as well.


Pete, To say the head currently on the 89 is "wrong" might be a little much, it very well may be just fine. Any way you look at it your going to have to pull it so I would wait til you get it off and then look it over to decide it's a paperweight.

I think it is Lowell's car that was smashed, I saw it at the last SDAC-Chicago meeting. He's still driving it but the whole right rear 1/4 is wasted. The unibody looks tweaked as well. I've got a 91 R/T shell I offered him to fix it with, but I think he's decided it's not worth repairing. I told him to let me know what he decides to do.

If you go hunting for turbo 5-spd vans stay out of my back yard, the cat is trained to kill.

[turbovanman²]

Simon, the "CD" stands for cross drilled, simple enough...

I've run TBI heads with turbo valves in them on a few cars with no noticeable differences in detonation sensitivity. From what I've seen the non-crossdrilled heads seem to be less crack prone as well.

I knew that, lol!

No, no, I am not saying the valves cause the sensitivity, its the non-TS that supposedly causes it.

I have seen what happens when you run non-turbo valves on a turbo, TD.com has a nice pic,
I would say at stock boost levels and a good tune, yuo shoudl be ok but when you turn it up, they can't take the heat.

[cellar dweller]

But Dave, what about the upcoming meeting at your house?

I have the feeling my picture is gonna be posted on the door, and the sign'll say:

Watch for THIS GUY
Wanted for 5-spd van hunting out of season
If seen, do NOT try to reason with him, call authorities IMMEDIATELY

[Turbodave]

But Dave, what about the upcoming meeting at your house?

It's like an impossible riddle, if you can fix the 6 broken cars between the van and the street before I catch you then you can have it: Here's the trick, all have batteries but only one is any good, 5 cars have keys but they are all on a ring with 50 other old dodge keys, 4 of the cars have running engines, but there are only 3 good hall effects. 1 car has a bad starter and will need to be push started with one of the others. 1 car has the e-brake stuck on, and the omni has no working door handles. There are a total of 9 flat tires. 1 car is out of gas, 1 has a bad fuel pump. The opposum living in 1 car has rabies and likes to bite, and there are bee's nests in most of them. I'll give you 30min to get through my turbo-mopar security system before I grab the rifle...

[Turbodave]

No, no, I am not saying the valves cause the sensitivity, its the non-TS that supposedly causes it.

I was agreeing with you on that..lol...

I know that non-turbo valves can get a little melty in a turbo engine, but really I haven't noticed much difference from the tapered shrouding. I have saved few turbo cars with cracked heads by putting the turbo exhaust valves and springs into a head off a TBI car.

[CletusJones]

It's like an impossible riddle, if you can fix the 6 broken cars between the van and the street before I catch you then you can have it: Here's the trick, all have batteries but only one is any good, 5 cars have keys but they are all on a ring with 50 other old dodge keys, 4 of the cars have running engines, but there are only 3 good hall effects. 1 car has a bad starter and will need to be push started with one of the others. 1 car has the e-brake stuck on, and the omni has no working door handles. There are a total of 9 flat tires. 1 car is out of gas, 1 has a bad fuel pump. The opposum living in 1 car has rabies and likes to bite, and there are bee's nests in most of them. I'll give you 30min to get through my turbo-mopar security system before I grab the rifle...

ROFL

So do you need to have a shelby to attend SDAC meetings? I'd like to meet some of you guys.

[ludwig340]

It's like an impossible riddle, if you can fix the 6 broken cars between the van and the street before I catch you then you can have it: Here's the trick, all have batteries but only one is any good, 5 cars have keys but they are all on a ring with 50 other old dodge keys, 4 of the cars have running engines, but there are only 3 good hall effects. 1 car has a bad starter and will need to be push started with one of the others. 1 car has the e-brake stuck on, and the omni has no working door handles. There are a total of 9 flat tires. 1 car is out of gas, 1 has a bad fuel pump. The opposum living in 1 car has rabies and likes to bite, and there are bee's nests in most of them. I'll give you 30min to get through my turbo-mopar security system before I grab the rifle...

Dave, you get the award for best TD/TM post ever. Feel free to bask.

[mcsvt]

It's like an impossible riddle, if you can fix the 6 broken cars between the van and the street before I catch you then you can have it: Here's the trick, all have batteries but only one is any good, 5 cars have keys but they are all on a ring with 50 other old dodge keys, 4 of the cars have running engines, but there are only 3 good hall effects. 1 car has a bad starter and will need to be push started with one of the others. 1 car has the e-brake stuck on, and the omni has no working door handles. There are a total of 9 flat tires. 1 car is out of gas, 1 has a bad fuel pump. The opposum living in 1 car has rabies and likes to bite, and there are bee's nests in most of them. I'll give you 30min to get through my turbo-mopar security system before I grab the rifle...

That is the greatest thing I have read in a while. Now lets see somebody try to beat the security

[Turbodave]

ROFL

So do you need to have a shelby to attend SDAC meetings? I'd like to meet some of you guys.

Nope, don't need to own a shelby, or even a car for that matter. Just have to like the cars enough to be willing to waste a few hours talking about them. All we usually ask for is that if you eat food at the meeting you chip in some $$ to pay for it, simple enough.

Go to www.sdac-chicago.org for more info. Our next meeting is in Aurora, IL on April 8th. If you plan on coming PM me and I'll make sure we throw and extra burger on the grill.

The meeting after that will be up at my place in Lake Villa on May 13th.

Come to a meeting and check the club out. If you decide to join we offer a monthly newsletter, mailing list and a few other perks.

[Turbodave]

Dave, you get the award for best TD/TM post ever. Feel free to bask.

I'll clear a spot on the mantle.