I don't recall seeing any threads about running E85 in our cars, but with it's characteristics like a lower price and higher octane (typically 100-105) it seems like it work well for a lot of us.
So anyhow, just wanted to start a thread to discuss what would need to be done to run it, and get people's opinions on it.
Dave Tekampe
Director SDAC National
VP SDAC-Chicago
85 GLH-Turbo (DC intercooled)
86 GLHS #107
87 GLHS #148
87 CSX #161, #608, #674
88 CSX-T #529, #541
89 Shadow Competition Package and lots more...
Gasoline has a preferred power stoichiometric of 12.5/1. Ethanol has a preferred power stoichiometric of 6.5/1.
I'll be honest and say that I don't really know how it could be run in our cars. I really don't want to get in a huge debate about it, but I'm really opposed to E85, Flex Fuel, Vehicles and a lot of other things. Ethanol, produced in the states, is a negative net energy.
Mario Di Cesare [url]www.boostedmopar.com[/url] 1985 Dodge Omni GLH - The Original "BOOSTBOX" 1991 Spirit R/T - "Grandma Boost" [url]http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=270429&postcount=1[/url]
This is very true, its much better produced from sugar cane in South America.Originally Posted by Mario
heres a thread I started that has info
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=16948
Mario, I think we have the same opinion on ethanols stance as alternative fuel. The manufacturers have been making E85 compatible vehicles for a long time because the epa gives them credits for it, that's the only reason. GM was the one that turned it into a marketing ploy to ease the guilty minds of their SUV buyers. I don't think it's the answer to any of our nation's energy issues, but I was thinking it might be a cheap form of race gas.
Based on your a/f ratios above I'm guessing we would need some serious fuel system modifications and calibration changes to run it. Still I'm curious if anyone has experimented with it. I know of a few n/a neon guys that run it and that's what peaked my curiousity.
Director SDAC National
VP SDAC-Chicago
85 GLH-Turbo (DC intercooled)
86 GLHS #107
87 GLHS #148
87 CSX #161, #608, #674
88 CSX-T #529, #541
89 Shadow Competition Package and lots more...
I missed that thread and that's pretty much what I was looking for, thanks.
Director SDAC National
VP SDAC-Chicago
85 GLH-Turbo (DC intercooled)
86 GLHS #107
87 GLHS #148
87 CSX #161, #608, #674
88 CSX-T #529, #541
89 Shadow Competition Package and lots more...
I plan on running E85 and E98 in the "Special Purpose" project. I did get a warning from the engine builder that pump E85 varies so your "Tune" could go out the window if it's "On the Edge" and possibly damage the engine. I'll be running the track fuel as it will be more "standard".
Now about E85 being negative net energy? Myth my friend. Even if you use corn or other good grains (which I don't support BTW). These crops are just convienent as that's what we're used to growing. Sugar Cane in the south would work and if you check into a weed called "Switchgrass"...
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html
and there's others. Just need to get the farmers to grow the "weeds".
Don't want to start a "Biofuel" war but there are ways to do things "Right" instead of just "Quick".
From what I understand which is not much, to get Ethanol from corn you need a seperate energy source to heat it, sugar cane provides its own energy source.
It takes about 1 gal of "gasoline" to make 2.5 gal of ethanol (as best I can remember). They also can reuse the solid waste from the fermenting operation to burn and get yet more use out of it.
There's lots on the web about this (some of it is really not good info so you have to sort thru it some).
Personally I wish they would end farming subsidies to "Not Grow" things and pay them to grow those "weeds" instead. They get paid either way and as consumers we win.
I agree! We need to get farmers to grow weed. Oh wait wrong weed.
It seems that some people get away with running e85 without stainless fuel rails???????
Im anti E85 because its all corn based and nobody is pouring $ into cellulose ethanol.
But E85 is like having $2-3 a gallon c16
I have been using it in the spirit, for about 2k miles of daily driving.
Car has +40's, afpr(at 70psi), 255lpm pump, stage 3 cal.
Car runs fine on it, and costs me the same per mile as 93 pump gas(.13)
Only drawbacks so far, mileage drops to about 21mpg, and cold weather below about 50 degrees, take a couple turns of the ignition before it will start, but has always started so far at below freezing weather.
Alot of good information out there now about e85.
Greg
well thanks to president jerk off, it is mandated that all gas have a certain quantity of ethanol per year, which is why gas quality can change dramatically, which is why i only run c16. but as stated the biggest issue with a high power car would be varying quality of fuel and dynamic stoichiometric points.
Steve Caldor @ Sdac-17 had his 16v csx running on E85 also
put a wide band o2 on it and tune for .8 lamda wot all is good
stock non e85 fuel rails tanks etc or what?
Stock, tank,lines and rail.
Hope things work out. I know there is a real obsession in the turbo dodge community that you need stainless this and stainless that but IMO those rules are really overboard as e85 does not need to be treated like methanol. I'm guessing the factory was just being careful with their setup.
I guess one problem with e85 is that not only do you need more injector but you need more fuel pump and if you want to make big power you will have to upgrade your fuel lines sooner.
But once you are runnign on e85 weeeeeeee.
BTW for everyones info the winter E85 technically changes to E75 because of hard starting problems in cold weather. Ive heard that people running it in their cars typically drop boost 2-3 psi to stay safe in the winter months.
I agree with the thoughts of corrosion in regard to E85. When you look at the corrosion factor, it is easy to see why people would be very wary of Meth., and I am sure that a lot of that seeps into people's thoughts of ethanol even though it is no where near as corrosive.
My biggest worry would be that the E85 would cause the failure of lines that might not be the healthiest in spots which cannot be detected from the outside, or in other like paths along which the fuel will flow. I would hate to lose a motor because of something silly like that. With that in mind, replacing the old stuff with stainless is not that much of a cost given the "do it once" mentality.
he was also having cold start problems...
I have been thinking of converting my Spirit R/T to run on e85. I have already modified the entire fuel system.
255 ltr/hr in-tank pump
3/8" aluminum hard line (supply & return)
-6AN SS hose and fittings
FWDP fuel rail
MP +20% injectors
Russel inline 6AN filter underhood
Accufab adjustable fuel presure regulator
The car isn't my daily driver so I'm free to experiment on it. What I'm really after is a low cost high octane fuel. Biggest disadvantage is the fact that the nearest E85 station is about 20 miles away. Would I really need anything other than some MP +40% injectors and a wideband or am I just asking for trouble?
Here is some info from Wikipedia for running E85 in a standard gasoline engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines
It looks like the fuel system has to be modified to prevent corrosion. This means elimination of rubber, cork, and soft metals such as aluminum. Thankfully the Summit brand braided SS hose that I'm using is compatible with alcohol. Still don't know if I need special injector O-rings though, or if the Walbro 255 ltr/hr pumps are OK with it. From what I read, corrosion with aluminum is mostly a problem only when the E85 is contaminated with water, which can cause the alcohol and gasoline mix to separate and also cause the formation of formic acid which can cause premature engine damage. This might require a motor oil with an acid neutralizer. Interesting stuff for sure, but I still want to try it out.
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