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Thread: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Those first pics of the F1 gear box looks exactly like a bike transmission, shift drum and all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    This is the reason we never went with the unequil length set-up in the first place, but instead, built a solid half-shaft to keep the forces as equil as possible.

    Bizzare when you think that we are the only ones in the world that I'm aware of that went this route?
    If your talking equal length, many OE's run it, GM pretty well had every FWD car with power with them, most import V6's have them and I've seen alot of Fords in the last 10-15 years have them, auto's as well as 5 speeds. My customers 1999 Sienna even has them.

    Quote Originally Posted by 135sohc View Post
    Earlier transmissions have a bronze bushing in the extension housing.
    Yeah, they went to a solid chunk, probably cheaper to make.
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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Simon, if you look at X-trac, Quaife, and other sequential transmissions, they are all basically the same.

    My issue is that NONE of the FWD versions are rated for more than 350ft-lb or torque, usually. Well, we blow that away! Now, I don't know if that rating is a "safe" rating, just like our stock transmission, or if that is an ultimate rating. I wouldn't want to spend $8k(probably more) to find out, though!

    Even RWD versions have *low* torque ratings compared to something like the Viper T56. That's why *if* I decide to go RWD, that's the transmission I've pretty much decided on. I've thought about the newer Z06 transaxle with torque tube as well simply for weight distribution and footwell space, but those aren't rated for as much power and don't have as much aftermarket support.

    There is also a newer Toyota transmission (NOT the R154) that people have been using with good success as well. It's a LOT lighter than the T56, but there is hardly any aftermarket support.

    To address the equal length half-shaft thing, almost ALL import FWD cars have had equal length half shafts for a LONG time. They do it a bit differently, however. Instead of having the seperate torque tube and then shaft, they incorporate the transfer part with the support bearing on that side of the shaft. I suppose *technically* it's not an equal length system like ours, but the physics are the same and there are less failure points and less mass.

    In the way of parts interchange, we do have the leg up if you decide to stick with that system because the actual shafts are the same side-to-side, so spares can be used on either side.

    What ever became of the theory that the support bearing assembly causes stress on the block and is a factor in cracking between the freeze plugs on the back of the block? It seems plausible, but has there been any conclusive evidence?

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    Supporting Member Turbo Mopar Contributor Rampage16V's Avatar
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    JT I've seen an aftermarket seal for the left side that had a support bearing built in

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rampage16V View Post
    JT I've seen an aftermarket seal for the left side that had a support bearing built in

    csxtra





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    Re: differential shims



    Pat, thanks for posting this up, I've got 3 555s and 1 568 to work on this spring (only one of them mine...).

    Now to hijack the thread:
    While looking at the Transmission Parts USA website, I found these:



    http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/...-032125lrb.htm

    FWD axle stabilizer with bearing, fits A413, A525, A520, A555.

    Has anybody used these before? I'm thinking it might take some load off of the diff bearings, especially when running an unequal-length setup.


    Last edited by csxtra; 03-06-2009 at 12:23 AM.

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    Simon, if you look at X-trac, Quaife, and other sequential transmissions, they are all basically the same.

    My issue is that NONE of the FWD versions are rated for more than 350ft-lb or torque, usually. Well, we blow that away! Now, I don't know if that rating is a "safe" rating, just like our stock transmission, or if that is an ultimate rating. I wouldn't want to spend $8k(probably more) to find out, though!

    Even RWD versions have *low* torque ratings compared to something like the Viper T56. That's why *if* I decide to go RWD, that's the transmission I've pretty much decided on. I've thought about the newer Z06 transaxle with torque tube as well simply for weight distribution and footwell space, but those aren't rated for as much power and don't have as much aftermarket support.

    There is also a newer Toyota transmission (NOT the R154) that people have been using with good success as well. It's a LOT lighter than the T56, but there is hardly any aftermarket support.

    To address the equal length half-shaft thing, almost ALL import FWD cars have had equal length half shafts for a LONG time. They do it a bit differently, however. Instead of having the seperate torque tube and then shaft, they incorporate the transfer part with the support bearing on that side of the shaft. I suppose *technically* it's not an equal length system like ours, but the physics are the same and there are less failure points and less mass.

    In the way of parts interchange, we do have the leg up if you decide to stick with that system because the actual shafts are the same side-to-side, so spares can be used on either side.

    What ever became of the theory that the support bearing assembly causes stress on the block and is a factor in cracking between the freeze plugs on the back of the block? It seems plausible, but has there been any conclusive evidence?
    Yea, no u-joint, smarter I think and I did some reading on that years ago, its still considered an equal length setup. Agreed, Dodge was smart enough to use the same shaft on both sides,

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Was refering to Our equil length set-up and just surprised after all this time that we seem to be the Only ones that stuck with and improved it all the way to this power level.

    I remember reading a thread somewhere (years ago) where they were discussing exactly what we did and decided that it would be too hard to balance or some thing like that and wrote off the idea! lol

    All I could think was, damn, that's typical TD/TM thinking right there, argue and use all your engineering degrees to the absolute (verbal) failure of something and don't even give it a try! lol

    ---------- Post added at 08:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 AM ----------



    Never heard of that one? Is that what ppl really thought? Only way I could see any significant load on that brkt would be if the bearing was piling up...........
    Not sure, some said they wanted to remove the u-joint as everyone never uses one.

    I think someone floated that theory years ago but of course, never proven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rampage16V View Post
    JT I've seen an aftermarket seal for the left side that had a support bearing built in
    Yep, Sonnax I believe made something, it was a bypass for fixing worn diff carrier bearings.
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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    WOAH!!!! Now THAT is something I think we could ALL bennefit from! I wonder how well they work/last?

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by turbovanman View Post
    Yep, Sonnax I believe made something, it was a bypass for fixing worn diff carrier bearings.
    Here is an updated link the the combination bearing/seal:
    http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/...-032125lrb.htm
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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Was refering to Our equil length set-up and just surprised after all this time that we seem to be the Only ones that stuck with and improved it all the way to this power level.

    I remember reading a thread somewhere (years ago) where they were discussing exactly what we did and decided that it would be too hard to balance or some thing like that and wrote off the idea! lol

    All I could think was, damn, that's typical TD/TM thinking right there, argue and use all your engineering degrees to the absolute (verbal) failure of something and don't even give it a try! lol
    You say "our" and everyone's comments are in response to "our cars/community" cuz our cars have the equal length... but after this post, it sound more like your "our" means your shop, and your car having a custom u-joint less I-shaft. Cool. pics?

    After I snapped my u-joint in 2004, I remember discussions about why the u-joint was there (production tolerances and misalignment allowance) and that with proper alignment the u-joint would not be needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rampage16V View Post
    JT I've seen an aftermarket seal for the left side that had a support bearing built in
    Quote Originally Posted by csxtra View Post
    Here is an updated link the the combination bearing/seal:
    http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/...-032125lrb.htm
    Interesting! Anyone try one?

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Old Matchbox never broke an axle, even when it ran 1.7 short times and high 13s in the 1/4, but my trouble was breaking 5 speed transmissions....even ones from turbo cars. Only 11 of them in 100,000 miles! Pit Bull (05 SRT4) broke both stock axles at just past 75,000 miles, just as my wrench said it would. I replaced them with Gator axles rated at 500 hp and broke one the next race out. I have DSS Level 5s in it for the last 3 years, but have not raced it more than 3 times a year since that because the 95 low powered Neon runs so much more consistant and makes a ton more money....but NOT fun compared to the Pit Bull! The Pit might have 335 hp too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAssPerformance View Post
    I need axles bad, want to run it more this year!

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Thanks for posting the pic. interesting, so how do you make sure it is aligned? or its just not too sensitive? I cant recall seing it but as busy as stuff has been lately i can't recall what i saw a week ago...

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    slide it up, slide it down, slide it left, slide it right, put it in the middle of all those measurements and tighten the retainer bolts.

    Brian

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by csxtra View Post
    Here is an updated link the the combination bearing/seal:
    http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/...-032125lrb.htm
    Great fix for thrifty customers,

    Quote Originally Posted by BadAssPerformance View Post
    You say "our" and everyone's comments are in response to "our cars/community" cuz our cars have the equal length... but after this post, it sound more like your "our" means your shop, and your car having a custom u-joint less I-shaft. Cool. pics?

    After I snapped my u-joint in 2004, I remember discussions about why the u-joint was there (production tolerances and misalignment allowance) and that with proper alignment the u-joint would not be needed.





    Interesting! Anyone try one?
    I used to use them on customer cars, as they didn't want to fix it properly so I'd use those with no warranty. Worked great except the metal floating around the trans didn't help much down the road,

    I don't know why Dodge used a u-joint? Laziness to have it properly aligned? No other manufacter uses a u-joint, the shaft slides in and you tighten the bracket down. Some have dowels, others like GM, you just tighten the bolts.
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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    BTW, the picture you posted says "Shelby cooling mod"? so does that mean when it cracks the block, the coolant leaks out and that's the new cooling system mod?

    I've been lucky, never broken an axle yet, just worn out U-joints.
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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
    Ya, + it was years ago. Now, I remember because I always feel like I'm force feeding ppl this info and they still aren't interested! lol

    Quick search and this is the first thread I found http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/sh...ght=half+shaft
    OK, I remember that thread, but must have missed/overlooked that pic. Good that it aligns well. Like you said tho, if someone didn't do it right, then there could be issues, which is prolly wy Chrysler went with the u-joint.

    I went to DSS after fall '04 when I broke 2 passenger side axles back to back. The first one was the inner CV splines going into the intermediate shaft, and the second was the u-joint/intermediate shaft. As cool as I think your solid i-shaft is for axle to trans alignment, it still doesnt help the axle breaking at the splines going into the i-shaft

    And at this point I would have to fab something up to go back to unequal. Here's hoping it was a HT issue, LOL

    Some say you save something like 28lbs!
    Not sure what your solid one weighs but a stocker including bracket is far from 28 lbs heavier than a long axle... well at least a DSS long axle

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Pass side with equal length saves trans oil too! LOL!



    Remember that game they played on kids shows before affirmative action? "Which one doesn't look like the other?"

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Every axle broke in the Z the past 4 years... Left to Right 1 to 5

    1 - New Saginaw Pass Side broke in intermediate shaft - Nov 2004
    2 - DSS Driver Side (200+ passes, and the Pass Side didn't break! But they rebuilt both inners like I asked them to) - Oct 2011
    3-5 - Snap Crackle and Pop, all DSS Pass Sides - July-Sept 2012

    Hoping its a HT issue....

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by BadAssPerformance View Post
    Pass side with equal length saves trans oil too! LOL!



    Remember that game they played on kids shows before affirmative action? "Which one doesn't look like the other?"

    Click image for larger version. 

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Views:	98 
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    Every axle broke in the Z the past 4 years... Left to Right 1 to 5

    1 - New Saginaw Pass Side broke in intermediate shaft - Nov 2004
    2 - DSS Driver Side (200+ passes, and the Pass Side didn't break! But they rebuilt both inners like I asked them to) - Oct 2011
    3-5 - Snap Crackle and Pop, all DSS Pass Sides - July-Sept 2012

    Hoping its a HT issue....
    The first 2 on the left are from fatigue, I'm 99% sure of that. The next 2 are probably a combination of heat treatment and stress riser at the end of the spline. The last one...That one is strange. It is AFTER the spline! For that to happen in that fashion at that spot there had to have been a stress riser at that point, like a machining mark or something. Heat treatment could have had a hand in it for sure, but for it to happen there, something else was going on.

    I wish we could do some real failure analysis. I'd like to section the failure point and put it under a microscope to look for stress cracks as how the grain is. I think that might tell a lot!

    It also might be a good idea to invest in some UV dye so you can inspect your axles for microcracks after each race session. It could be an inexpensive way to be able to keep racing each time out without wondering if an axle is on the verge of failure. Of course that doesn't mean it won't fail, it's just a preventative measure....like changing your oil.

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    The first 2 on the left are from fatigue, I'm 99% sure of that. The next 2 are probably a combination of heat treatment and stress riser at the end of the spline. The last one...That one is strange. It is AFTER the spline! For that to happen in that fashion at that spot there had to have been a stress riser at that point, like a machining mark or something. Heat treatment could have had a hand in it for sure, but for it to happen there, something else was going on.

    I wish we could do some real failure analysis. I'd like to section the failure point and put it under a microscope to look for stress cracks as how the grain is. I think that might tell a lot!

    It also might be a good idea to invest in some UV dye so you can inspect your axles for microcracks after each race session. It could be an inexpensive way to be able to keep racing each time out without wondering if an axle is on the verge of failure. Of course that doesn't mean it won't fail, it's just a preventative measure....like changing your oil.
    Not to hijack, but what do you make of these? Two broken up the shaft are stock Mopar pieces, one that broke at the splines was an aftermarket. It's the two mopar pieces that have left me a bit puzzled. I've snapped a few at the splines, but never up the shaft like that in the trans. All three happened in the Aries, on the drivers side, within about 20 passes total for the three of them.

    To keep this on topic, JT and I have been comparing notes on our axle issues lately. :-)

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat View Post
    Not to hijack, but what do you make of these? Two broken up the shaft are stock Mopar pieces, one that broke at the splines was an aftermarket. It's the two mopar pieces that have left me a bit puzzled. I've snapped a few at the splines, but never up the shaft like that in the trans. All three happened in the Aries, on the drivers side, within about 20 passes total for the three of them.

    To keep this on topic, JT and I have been comparing notes on our axle issues lately. :-)

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    The one on the right is the a-typical stress-riser failure at the end of the splines. The other two...I wonder, is that where the seal rides where they snapped? If so, I'd almost be willing to bet that the seal wore a groove in them and caused a stress riser. If not, then my other thought would be possibly a bending force was applied to the shaft somehow causing overstress at peak torque. I forget, is there a support bushing on the driver's side like there is on the passenger side of the transmission? If not, then I wonder if there is wheel movement fore and aft during acceleration? (I know you mentioned you questioned how well the bushings are holding up after being beat on for something like 8 years).

    I want to point out that I'm not a professional failure analysis engineer, so I might be off in my interpretation of what I'm seeing. I'm basing my opinions on what I learned while earning my degree and what I've read on those websites I posted up on the page before (I think is where they are). I'm open to any, and all other opinions and I do not consider myself to be a true *expert*. I just like looking at broken stuff and figuring out how and why it broke!

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    Re: BadAss SRT-Z - 2.4L / A568 - Update!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper1 View Post
    The first 2 on the left are from fatigue, I'm 99% sure of that.
    They also look a little ductile, no? #2 for sure, but even #1 twisted alittle. If you zoom in on the pic of teh two from a couple weeks ago, the DS ones started to twist and the pass side just snapped...

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