Disappointed...

[Bubba]

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible and stick to the facts. Last Fall around September/October timeframe I was looking to get a big valve head put together with portwork etc...as my previous headwork I had paid for wasn't what I was looking for and didn't yield the results I wanted either. I had spent the Summer collecting all the valves, big valve seats, chromoly retainers, keepers, MP high lift valve springs, freshly re-built stock g-head, F3 camshaft, gaskets etc... Originally I was looking to Lonewolf to do the work, but during a conversation and ordering some parts through FWD perf. with Cindy, she said that Stephane is doing heads for her and would do a great job etc...so I was convinced to let her have my work. I wanted flow testing done as well. I was quoted $700 originally for the work. I said that I could send my parts in right away to have the work started, but I was in no hurry, I just needed it done by the beginning of the year so that I could swap everything out in time for SDAC in June. No problem. Cindy didn't want money right away, but I wanted to pay her in December since the head was suppose to be finished at the beginning of the year. She told me it'd be $975 when I called her in December to pay in full. Since I was originally quoted $700 I haggled a little bit and we came to an agreement of $900, so that is what I paid in December. From about January to March I called once every 2-3 weeks and was told on numerous occasions that my head would be done in another week or so or that Stephane was out of town taking care of family business back in Canada so my work was being delayed. I even donated $50 to Stephane's team. I was like, no problem since I've got until April/early May in order ot have enough time to get all my parts swapped out. Around the end of April I found out that Stephane was "stuck" in Canada and couldn't continue my would until further notice. I wqas given 3 options, 1. wait for Stephane to return 2. let Wallace finish my head for me or 3. I was told that there was a Stage 3 head sitting on the shelf, but it was a fastburn head, not a g-head. After pondering this whole thing, I decided to opt for the Stage 3 head that was supposedly sitting on the shelf for the sake of time. Cindy did tell me that if I was un-happy with it that she would allow me to return it for my g-head later on. Sounds great! I'll have my parts in time to get ready for SDAC. Well, it's the middle of August and I call atleast once a week and still haven't received my head. I did receive a 2-piece manifold and exhaust header that I had sent in for port matching and wasn't charged for, but haven't received my head. What upsets me the most is that I was under the impression that this stage 3 head was on the shelf ready to go, but I've been told that it was out for it's valve job, getting finished up on numerous occasions and even that it's ben done for 2 months, but the shop she uses for headwork hasn't shipped it yet. I asked for a tracking number numerous times after this other shop supposedly shipped it and haven't received any tracking number. I even bid on a used big valve head on E-bay back in June just to get something temporary and was outbid $251 to my $250 bid by Cindy. So long as this used head isn't what I'm going to receive, I'm fine with that.

To fast forward to the past week or so, I sent Cindy a message last Friday stating that I needed to see my head within a week or I needed all my parts back and my money. I've wasted 10 months waiting on something that I paid for 7 months ago. I'm an extremely patient person, but my patience has worn out. I just need to start over from where I started with this deal and deal with someone else. This stinks, I've never had any problem with FWD performance before this. Not saying that I'm done buying from FWD perf, but it will probably only be in-stock items only from now on.

[glhs727]

Christian,
It is totally understandable for you to be upset. I'm upset too. I hate that FWD on occasion has to rely on outside vendors to get things done, and when they let us down, they let our customers down too. I'm sure this will all be resolved very shortly.
Thanks,
Cindy
PS Chris, I sent you a PM

[Bubba]

At this point, it's been too long. If your 3rd party machinist makes it a habit to sit on a finished product for over 2 months, then I'd suggest finding someone else to do your machining. I'd question the quality of work from someone who sits on something that's finished this long as well, so I think it's best to just start fresh with my parts and money in hand. No hard feelings, I just need to move on and get this kind of work done elsewhere. I've wasted 10 months and it's really hard to plan big car projects wasting on a major part this long. Please don't be upset at me, but rather the company that's doing the work for you.

[Bubba]

Just an update. I did receive a call today with a UPS tracking number from the machine shop in Kansas.

[Bubba]

I received the head yesterday. Plan to flow it against a stock head to see what kind of performance I should expect. Looks really nice and pretty! Nice to finally have something in hand after the long wait. Here are some pictures:

http://theshadallac.com/FWD_P_Head/img_0601.jpg

http://theshadallac.com/FWD_P_Head/img_0602.jpg

http://theshadallac.com/FWD_P_Head/img_0604.jpg

http://theshadallac.com/FWD_P_Head/img_0605.jpg

http://theshadallac.com/FWD_P_Head/img_0606.jpg

http://theshadallac.com/FWD_P_Head/img_0607.jpg

[Bubba]

Here are the flow numbers:


Intake Exhaust

________Stock_______S3 head_____________Stock______S3 head
.100 lift: 23.2________45.3_________________38.9_______43
.200 lift: 78.8________94.1 _________________72________75.9

.300 lift: 105.1_______132.8 ________________89.9_______104.6

.400 lift: 125.9_______159__________________103.8_______124.6

.450 lift: 131.8_______165.1_________________109.7_______130. 2

.500 lift: na_________168.7 _________________na_________131.9

This was on a Superflow 600 at 28" water.

[1FastCSX289]

I think its good that we start double checking the head work that we pay good money for. So the head flowed 168/131 @ .500 lift? Is that a big valve stage 3 port?

[Bubba]

It is a big valve stage 3 head.

[Ondonti]

Never seen this thread before but it seems that the stock head was flowing 25-30cfm less then other people have tested.

So i would say if you want to compare those numbers to someone else you would need to add about 25-30cfm onto everything.......

You have a about a 25% gain on the intake and 20% gain on the exhaust.

Thats a bigger increase then most TD ported heads.

[Bubba]

My machinist took an average of stock heads flowed against the stock one he flowed and came up with a 16% correction factor. Basically everything he's flowed has been approximately 16% less than everyone else.

I wasn't so un-happy with the flow numbers as I was with the cracks and some other issues, although it barely outflowed a +1mm valve g-head done by the same machinist.

With all that being said, I did receive my old parts back and a refund. Doesn't help me with the almost 1 year of time lost, but does basically put me back where I started, which is what I asked for. Winter's here anyways, gotta get another head by Spring.

[1FastCSX289]

My machinist took an average of stock heads flowed against the stock one he flowed and came up with a 16% correction factor. Basically everything he's flowed has been approximately 16% less than everyone else.

I wasn't so un-happy with the flow numbers as I was with the cracks and some other issues, although it barely outflowed a +1mm valve g-head done by the same machinist.

With all that being said, I did receive my old parts back and a refund. Doesn't help me with the almost 1 year of time lost, but does basically put me back where I started, which is what I asked for. Winter's here anyways, gotta get another head by Spring.

Glad to hear you got your refund. Now get someone to port that thing like it should be!!!! Cant wait to hear your numbers and even more importantly your track results!

[Bubba]

Glad to hear you got your refund. Now get someone to port that thing like it should be!!!! Cant wait to hear your numbers and even more importantly your track results!

Working on that already. Should have something in about a month.

[gti_7]

Here are the flow numbers:


Intake Exhaust

________Stock_______S3 head_____________Stock______S3 head
.100 lift: 23.2________45.3_________________38.9_______43
.200 lift: 78.8________94.1 _________________72________75.9

.300 lift: 105.1_______132.8 ________________89.9_______104.6

.400 lift: 125.9_______159__________________103.8_______124.6

.450 lift: 131.8_______165.1_________________109.7_______130. 2

.500 lift: na_________168.7 _________________na_________131.9

This was on a Superflow 600 at 28" water.

Hi, i was reading posts about cylinder heads and came across this thread. Any idea why the stock head #'s are so low? i thought a stock head should flow more like these numbers. [from Gary D's site]
intake:
200=91
300=125
400=145
500=157
exhaust
200=78
300=103
400=122
500=128

just trying to learn all i can about cylinder heads and how they flow

thanks
bernie

[Bubba]

If you read above, these numbers were approximately 16% lower than what they should have been due to technique.

[1FastCSX289]

Hi, i was reading posts about cylinder heads and came across this thread. Any idea why the stock head #'s are so low? i thought a stock head should flow more like these numbers. [from Gary D's site]
intake:
200=91
300=125
400=145
500=157
exhaust
200=78
300=103
400=122
500=128

just trying to learn all i can about cylinder heads and how they flow

thanks
bernie

There are some variations in the way that heads can be flowed. The important thing is that the same technique is used from the start to the finished product. Thats how flow numbers can be manipulated. For instance if you flow the head with a discharge tube on the exhaust and a radius on the intake, it will flow more. The numbers that Christian has posted are VERY close to what my machinist flowed a stock head at. I also know that Steve Mercier (DirectCOnnection) gets these numbers when flowing a stock head. So, it is important not to pay attention to actual flow numbers, but percentage gain when judging a cylinder head.

[tvanlant]

There are some variations in the way that heads can be flowed. The important thing is that the same technique is used from the start to the finished product. Thats how flow numbers can be manipulated. For instance if you flow the head with a discharge tube on the exhaust and a radius on the intake, it will flow more. The numbers that Christian has posted are VERY close to what my machinist flowed a stock head at. I also know that Steve Mercier (DirectCOnnection) gets these numbers when flowing a stock head. So, it is important not to pay attention to actual flow numbers, but percentage gain when judging a cylinder head.

Perfectly put

I had been confused for the longest time with how peope compare flow numbers with our heads. We all know that every flowbench reads differently, but still, for some reason, the majority of people are concerned with the "big number at max lift" instead of what kind of gain is achieved over a stock head across the entire lift range.

[The Pope]

Perfectly put

I had been confused for the longest time with how people compare flow numbers with our heads. We all know that every flowbench reads differently, but still, for some reason, the majority of people are concerned with the "big number at max lift" instead of what kind of gain is achieved over a stock head across the entire lift range.

Some time ago on TD.com I was in a big war with people over Frank posting everyones flow numbers. He went and showed one guys stock numbers and then everyones CFM on different benches. Tvanlant is the FIRST I've seen post all % of gain over his lift range when SELLING his heads. I posted it but showed the gain in a graph against a stocker. There was another time the big CFM debate came up when a guy on TD.com posted in my 655 thread. He sold his 655 because it only made 180 CFM and the lonewolf head with stock valves flowed 192 CFM. He was really laughing till he tested it! So looking at a venders flow page and seeing the % of gain over an RPM range and not CFM is the best way. My head on my bench says 181 CFM, but on lonewolfs it would read 208 CFM. Fact is that it is over 33% more on the intake than stock, add that to your stock flow numbers and see what you get! People can't then buy your head and want there money back when it doesn't make the CFM you said it would either. The 782 requires a ton of measuring, it isn't "eye balled" like some easier heads to port. I would bet if someone had a truely "stock" head they could find the same % of gain +- 1% with the head they buy. I make all my cuts within .010", then I blend the ports to .010" with 120 grit. So the 782 because it is a measure cut head, should also be a very easy head to make the same way each time.

Rob

[1FastCSX289]

There was another time the big CFM debate came up when a guy on TD.com posted in my 655 thread. He sold his 655 because it only made 180 CFM and the lonewolf head with stock valves flowed 192 CFM. He was really laughing till he tested it! So looking at a venders flow page and seeing the % of gain over an RPM range and not CFM is the best way. My head on my bench says 181 CFM, but on lonewolfs it would read 208 CFM. Fact is that it is over 33% more on the intake than stock, add that to your stock flow numbers and see what you get! People can't then buy your head and want there money back when it doesn't make the CFM you said it would either.
Rob

Yea, that was ME. And I was NOT comparing flow numbers, I was comparing percentage gain. It wasnt a matter of LWP not advertising percentage gain. That wasnt the issue. Lonewolf DOES provide that information in a flow sheet when you purchase a head. He gives all the lift numbers on the head STOCK and then all the numbers PORTED. If they were accurate, the debate would not have occured.

Anyways, thats neither here nor there. The point is look at percentage gain when looking to buy a head, not overall flow numbers. The head that I wound up buying after the whole LWP incident had lower flow numbers than alot of +1mm heads, but the percentage gain, particularly on the exhaust side was quite nice. I was happy.