E85 parts compatibility/FAQ

[Speedeuphoria]

looking for some info

Are the walboro 255 pumps safe for E85?
What about injectors, some are more expensive and say alky safe(something like that), is it the O ring thats different?
What are the recomended fuel line materials?Is braided line OK?
Should I consider a little hotter spark plug then w/ gas?

I'm not real up on it yet so I thought I would start a thread because there is a E85 pump intown and more coming around the state as we speak.


This will be a project for next year, heres my thoughts for a setup.
Since 1 255 wont support enough fuel for me, I'm thinking about running another external 255 in parallel w/ my current external wally 255. Then have -6 lines from each run to the engine bay and Y into a -10an fitting to the rail. I also might re do my -6 return w/ at least -8 if it dosent agree. Will prob need new injectors anyway as mine are currently 75#@58psi and they will max out before the rest of the setup(prob get some 160#er's)

[cordes]

looking for some info

Are the walboro 255 pumps safe for E85? i have read of many guys running the stock pumps, but I wouldn't
What about injectors, some are more expensive and say alky safe(something like that), is it the O ring thats different? I can't seem to find anyone who knows for sure yet.
What are the recomended fuel line materials?Is braided line OK?Most all braided lines are rated for alky, but always double check
Should I consider a little hotter spark plug then w/ gas?i have not thought of that yet, but it is a good question.

I'm not real up on it yet so I thought I would start a thread because there is a E85 pump intown and more coming around the state as we speak.


This will be a project for next year, heres my thoughts for a setup.
Since 1 255 wont support enough fuel for me, I'm thinking about running another external 255 in parallel w/ my current external wally 255. Then have -6 lines from each run to the engine bay and Y into a -10an fitting to the rail. I also might re do my -6 return w/ at least -8 if it dosent agree. Will prob need new injectors anyway as mine are currently 75#@58psi and they will max out before the rest of the setup(prob get some 160#er's)

I am pretty much in the same boat as you plans wise. I have been purchasing my parts with alky in mind for almost two years now. Of course it is the bigger expensive stuff that will add up in the end. For your power level, you will have to put a lot more thought into it than myself. I am pretty sure that -6 lines will support 400HP with alky running through them, but I have not done too much work there. I am sure that 160lb injectors would be in order for you and your power goals, as I will be running 95 lb. injectors in a 8v omni. I am hoping that we can get together a few guys to figure this out, and take the guess work out of it.

[Speedeuphoria]

Well heres where I'll start compiling the info, others please join in and add info.

Locations of E85 pumps near you(by zip or state)
http://www.e85refueling.com/

E85 stoich is ~9.7:1(some say 10:1, some say 9:1), so figuring on gas at 14.7, that means you need ~1.5 times more fuel on e85.
Summer mix is noramlly 85/15 eth/gas
Winter mix is normally 70/30 eth/gas
Octanes: E100 is 113 to 115, E98 113 to 112.5 and E85 goes from 96 to 105

Also cold starts/winter driving can be hard till it warms up, changing 1range hotter plug will help
E98 is also availble in some places that info can be add to this thread also.

Good thread w/ info and power to be made
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1844228&page=2
Talks about how the BSFC goes to crap and alky likes to be rich, so think in terms of 2x fuel compared to gas to be safe(as far as pump(s)/injectors are concerned)

Page 5 has a some FAQ info starting 4th post down


More great genneral Info
http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel2.html

[cordes]

So far I have found that MSD and FAST injectors are alky compatible.

I got a price of about $330 for a set of four 95PPH injectors from the guys at FAST while at the dream cruise yesterday. That is the best I have found thus far.

[nBALLS]

There are several EVO/DSM guys running E85/E90/E98 in the NW, the most notable being Lucas English (www.englishracing.net), his daily driven '04 EVO with a stock turbo (10.5 hotside), went 11.2@120+, running E90 (custom mixed, he has a 500 gallon drum of E98 at his shop). He also tuned Paul Nelson's EVO to 712AWHP on E85. Paul's EVO now runs C16 and is deep in the 9s, going for 8s on a new setup with a GT42R....

Lucas's EVO dynoed 431AWHP on ONE 255hp pump, 850cc FIC injectors, and an otherwise stock fuel system. He puts a "top lube" into his E98 tank, to make it ready and safe for pumping into cars. As far as I know, E85 you get at the pump has this too.

Another guy has a '92 Galant VR4, with an FP3052(GT30R), running E85, has traction troubles out of the hole(needs better tires, lol), and goes 11.2@128, but I'm not sure what he has for fuel system, but I know he only has one pump.

Below is a cross post from another forum I'm on, and he usually cross posts E85/E90/E98 results and info onto www.evolutionm.net too(in the NW section).

E90 11.262@121.19 Stock Turbo

She needs a cage now Cant go to Woodburn or PIR now.

I know with the way I hooked on my 11.2 pass I could have launched her harder if the rear axles could take it

My 11.2 was 1/4tank of gas no spair with sub and wing.

Quick list of mods.
-'04 SSL EVO IIIV Stock trubo
-HKS 272's
-ETS IC and piping with ETS intake pipe
-FIC 850s's
-Forge BOV
-10.5 Hot side
-Ebay O2 (needed tig welder, grinder and resurface to make right)
-255hp
-Cust cold air intake with airmeter in fender.
-E90 fuel
-spike 28psi hold 24psi to redline.
-Flash tuning done buy me.
-FP upgraded WG actuater
-ARP rod bolts
-BS remove
-stock head bolts
-BR 3in TBE
-Exedy HD twin
-EnglishRacing built tranny with a IX taller 1st



The log.

With the E90 my scaling is set to stock of 513. Never new a Evo could take this kida timing I know I can feed alot more in on the 5.5k and lower. Looks like 1G timing #



A motor Pic

[Speedeuphoria]

A single bosch 044 pump will support 500+hp on E85, not sure exactly how much more.
if you looking for one watch out for knock offs, I think the cheapest real one is $205

[Mike_Shepard]

I've got a FFV fuel rail sitting here if anyone is interested

[Clay]

Talk about bringing a thread back from the dead!

Im doing some more research on e85 and so far the only question I have is on running a WB with it. Ive got an Innovate wide band, but I dont think it will read much below 9 or 10 to 1..... how will it work with E85!??

[Spraynlog]

Talk about bringing a thread back from the dead!

Im doing some more research on e85 and so far the only question I have is on running a WB with it. Ive got an Innovate wide band, but I dont think it will read much below 9 or 10 to 1..... how will it work with E85!??

Can you switch it to read 'Lambda'? My buddy at work has a WB also, but same thing, won't read below 9 A/F ratio.

[Clay]

I havent done it yet, but I do believe I can switch it to read the lamda scale. With that in mind I could be ok

[1966 dart wagon]

yep as stated make it run lambda, thats what I tune for on my zeitronix wideband.

Rich e85 .71 lambda
lean e85 .86 lambda

so i would just point towards .80 or so right in the middle. Im running full e85 on my car now, with Robs Smec Turbonator cal. Running 40+ injectors, and a walbro 255lph pump from TU. You will have ot change your fuel filter after some miles of driving around with e85. While i did the pump i replaced the rubber lines, when i did the fuel filter i replaced those lines too along with the lines on my fuel rail. You will be there(at those lines) for the upgrades on everything anyways it wasnt a big deal, just make sure to get the High Pressure FI hose, its like 3-5 bucks a foot though, but you need it.

no problems here...oh and did i mention ITS 1.89 A GALLON WOOOHOO

[Spraynlog]

yep as stated make it run lambda, thats what I tune for on my zeitronix wideband.

Rich e85 .71 lambda
lean e85 .86 lambda

so i would just point towards .80 or so right in the middle. Im running full e85 on my car now, with Robs Smec Turbonator cal. Running 40+ injectors, and a walbro 255lph pump from TU. You will have ot change your fuel filter after some miles of driving around with e85. While i did the pump i replaced the rubber lines, when i did the fuel filter i replaced those lines too along with the lines on my fuel rail. You will be there(at those lines) for the upgrades on everything anyways it wasnt a big deal, just make sure to get the High Pressure FI hose, its like 3-5 bucks a foot though, but you need it.

no problems here...oh and did i mention ITS 1.89 A GALLON WOOOHOO

Wow! That's a great price! I paid $2.59 here in Oregon.
What temperature T-stat and type spark plugs are you using?

[1966 dart wagon]

Wow! That's a great price! I paid $2.59 here in Oregon.
What temperature T-stat and type spark plugs are you using?

180 degree thermostat with a hole drilled in it like gary d's site says. Plugs are NGK GR4's, stock equivalent to champion 404's (thats RN12YCS) that's the 'stock' number.

Regular fuel is 2.55 here now so its getting down in price but cant beat the e85. It does suck starting in the morning here though probably 30-40 degrees out in the mornings, it takes about 3 different cycles of cranks for it to start, no biggy but it does make my car look more like 'junk' when im sitting in the parking lot cranking, and cranking haha o well, then when it does start it runs SUPER rich so i have to rev it to about 2k and hold it there and just tap the throttle every once and a while and then it idles fine after that. that's my only issues, not sure if i mentioned this but it smells awesome

[Speedeuphoria]

Im doing some more research on e85 and so far the only question I have is on running a WB with it. Ive got an Innovate wide band, but I dont think it will read much below 9 or 10 to 1..... how will it work with E85!??

No need to change anything:

A/F is just a multiplier, all O2 sensors are known as Lambda sensors since they read Lambda(oxygen content, they could care less about the fuel used). Stoich of any/all fuels is 1.0 Lambda. So since your wideband is programed for gasoline but is still a Lambda sensor, then the stoich of any fuel you use is still: Lambda 1.0 x 14.7(gasoline A/F multiplier)=14.7. Another example, stoich for methanol is Lambda 1.0 x 6.4(methanol multiplier)=6.4 so if you set your gauge to report methanol, every fuel(even gasoline) will read as 6.4 stoich

As long as the gauge is set for gasoline, 14.7 is stoich and WOT is similar.
.78 Lambda is good for E85 which would be .78 x 14.7=11.466 A/F

Again the benefit of alky/E85 is that you can run rich and still make great power. If you look at gasoline it drops power the richer you go starting at ~12.5 A/F, but for safety we run richer and sacrifice power. E85 does not, its more like a flatline, so you can run it richer, meaning safer, and still make great power!

Ever heard the saying that a motor makes the best power on the ragged edge, well that is true for gasoline, but not needed for alky


Anyway if you take 1966 Dart Wagon's numbers

Rich e85 .71 lambda
lean e85 .86 lambda

I would highly suggest not running .86 Lambda or anywhere close to that at WOT in high boost. On a NA sure.

Stick with ~.78 Lambda, if your running way high boost like 30psi and aggressive timing then .71 Lambda would be safer.

So on the Innovate(same I have) just leave it on gas, and you want the A/F to be: .71 x 14.7= 10.437 on the rich side to 11.5 A/F(lean side) on WOT in good boost, remember richer is safer and wont lose power like gas(as long as your using straight E85)

If your running a mix I would stay around 11.5 A/F

[Clay]

Speedeuphoria - thanks for the explanation! Now I completely understand

[Speedeuphoria]

You can try it in LW, to get a veiw. If you have a log, view it, then change the gas type to methanol. You will see the graph stays the same, the numbers will change but where you were 14.7 before will now become 6.4 A/F.

Gotta love LW!

If anyone needs help with LW/Innovate stuff, I can help you out just PM me, I love the software

[1966 dart wagon]

Just wondering why is it alright to run e85 more rich then say your typical fuel, cause with your regular gasoline if you go rich you loose power how does this not apply with e85? Is it cause there is very little fuel in it to begin with, well if that's true i feel better since my lambda is around .76 in the upper rpms of my car leanest it goes is .85 right away when i floor it. I'm running robs turbonator as mentioned now for timing advancement, would just moving the base (distributor timing) up a couple degrees 14 instead of 12 give me more power, if that is alright, can i just keep on going higher till I get a CEL for knock??? Also how do i know when i should stop turning up the boost, i have the boost bug and i want more im at 20psi now, how do I know the limit?

[Speedeuphoria]

From what I've seen if you keep the A/F's rich like I said, you will have a hard time getting knock. To start I would not mess with the timing, just keep adding boost, just need to make sure your injectors/pump are up to the task. Then if you want more think about adding ~3deg of timing.

[1966 dart wagon]

From what I've seen if you keep the A/F's rich like I said, you will have a hard time getting knock. To start I would not mess with the timing, just keep adding boost, just need to make sure your injectors/pump are up to the task. Then if you want more think about adding ~3deg of timing.

more boost...thats what i wanted to hear so is there some kind of caculation i can use to tell me approx. how much boost i can run, or just keep upping it till i start to go lean in the upper rpms??? Ive read 40+s are good to 350hp im not near that, it would be pretty cool to break 300crank hp or around 250-280whp

[Speedeuphoria]

more boost...thats what i wanted to hear so is there some kind of caculation i can use to tell me approx. how much boost i can run, or just keep upping it till i start to go lean in the upper rpms??? Ive read 40+s are good to 350hp im not near that, it would be pretty cool to break 300crank hp or around 250-280whp

Well there are many factors, on 93 octane gas I like to keep my max dynamic compression ratio ~ 18:1

The formula is this: (actual boost/14.7)+1 xCR
So for me 16psi is the most I run on 93 octane with ~8.9CR. Looks like this: (16/14.7) +1 x 8.9=18.5 CR when at 16psi on my motor but I have a big turbo and low timing.

I dont have any other info about different octanes, and cam timing effects dynamic CR also which this formula doesnt account for. Also more boost =hotter IAT's so that needs to be considered as well as how efficient the turbo is at that boost level.

If I had to make a very vague guess(I'll do some more research), I would say that every ~2 octane points of fuel will let you raise the dynamic CR ~1 point for gasoline, alky can likely get away with more as it burns cooler.


I know 350whp on an 8v with +40's is OK safe, but with E85 if your not raising the FP then the +40's are good for less whp