91 Spirit R/T build up

[1FastCSX289]

Hey guys. I just purchased/traded a 91 Dodge Spirit R/T. The car is really clean, but mostly stock. I have been wanting to build a fast street turbo dodge for a while and just recently decided this is the car. I am into f-bodys and currently own a 96 WS6 Formula that I built a 383 LT4 with nitrous and tons of other goodies. The car runs mid 11's @123 mph. I am selling this car (if anyone is interested email me ) and putting some of the money into modding my R/T. I figure on having about 6-7k to spend on making the R/T at least as fast as my bird is.

Although I have owned several turbo dodges, I must admit I am fairly ignorant (incomparison to my f-body knowledge) when it comes to turbos and performance parts for these car. I started this thread to gain information on getting this thing going and I plan to add to this as I start my project and hopefully develop a nice log with pictures of my progress as I go.

Now, my WS6 probably wont sell until spring, so I have begun to "play" a bit with the car. I have added (or soon to add) an MBC, +20's, adjustable FPR. I am also thinking about purchasing an intercooler, but I wanted to get one that will work for me now (with stock set-up) and still be able to be used later when im making 4-500 HP. This is the one I am thinking about:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...RK%3AMEWA%3AIT

What do you think?

Finally, my goal is 400 HP or so at the wheels, but a totally streetable 400HP. I plan on using a stock bottom end (maybe 4 bolt mains, wiseco pistons). I am also thinking about using nitrous, as I am familiar with it (and quite addicted ). I am looking for suggestions on what I would need to do to make this kind of power (turbo, intercooler, alky, nitrous, computer program, injectors, etc) I would appreciate any insight you TIII guys may have. Please remember my budget and I also am figuring on about 1500 bucks to rebuild the A568 with a Quaife and buy slicks. So figure on about 5000 to build the motor. Thanks.

[cordes]

The bottom end should be ready to rock. Forged slugs from the factory, and the crank and rods should be able to hold 400HP all day long. Big money saver there.

I would just stuff the largest Quality IC in the front of the car that I could. That cooler looks pretty nice, but what does the core look like on the inside? That is one of my biggest fears in purchasing coolers off of ebay.

As for the turbo, I would probbaly go for a super 50 trim wheel in a TO4E housing and a .63 hotside with a stage III wheel in it. That should provide some very streetable boost and support 400HP to the wheels relativly easily.

IIRC, 4sfed4 put down over 400HP with +40 injectors.

I am sure the list never ends, but I would reccomend getting some of the specifics about 4sfed4s setup, as he had/has one very mean RT.

[1FastCSX289]

Yes, I realize the bottom end is pretty good to go.......4 bolt mains arent necessary? I figured I would be replacing the pistons in the rebuild, so I fiugred wiseco or venolias.

I dont know what the inside of the cooler looks like, but it advertises 1200 cfm of flow which would be enough.

Thanks for the turbo opinion. I would like to get some dialog going on this subject as I am still totally undecided.

I did look into 4sfed4's set-up. Pretty awesome and on a stock long block! I would like to hear more on his car though and the specifics of his tuning, etc....

[fleckster]

Actually the stock long block is strong enough. The only real bottle-necks on the Turbo III are the turbo (way too small) and the intercooler (again too small and restrictive). By swapping turbos and going with a nice front-mount intercooler, then the appropriate computer/injector/MAP sensor combination, 12s are cake with slicks!

I would suggest realatively cheap improvements that you will be using no matter what you combination ends up being. i.e. 3" mandral exhaust and low restriction muffler. (a converter is up to your local regulations and sound tolerance levels!)

[cordes]

Yes, I realize the bottom end is pretty good to go.......4 bolt mains arent necessary? I figured I would be replacing the pistons in the rebuild, so I fiugred wiseco or venolias.

I dont know what the inside of the cooler looks like, but it advertises 1200 cfm of flow which would be enough.

Thanks for the turbo opinion. I would like to get some dialog going on this subject as I am still totally undecided.

I did look into 4sfed4's set-up. Pretty awesome and on a stock long block! I would like to hear more on his car though and the specifics of his tuning, etc....

Although I agree that flow is essential for an efficient setup, one must also considder the cooling factor. A huge IC will give the best of both worlds idealy. The reason I mention the internal turbulators is that many of the ebay ICs have virtually none, so the flow like the dickens, but dont cool at all.

I also like to see what PSI the backpressure rating is taken at.

[Aries_Turbo]

Sean, save your cash on the bottom end. you dont need exotic stuff unless you are going for 1000hp like the SMP charger. He is the only one that makes the custom 4 bolt mains IIRC. 2 bolt (all stock blocks) is plenty for what you want. how many miles are on the engine now? if its high, id do a stock rebuild. at the most, a set of pistons. you can do that for under 1500$.

im also a little leery of the XSpower and the SSautochrome stuff. they really make some garbage parts sometimes or at least they have in the past. a 3 T2 stock core cooler is what larry was using. id check on ebay for thunderbird SC intercooler cores and have them welded up. or get two SRT coolers and put them one on top of the other and change the end tanks slightly. that will be more than enough flow. the SRT stage 3 makes 360whp with one of them.

when you rebuild the trans, you might want to look into the quaife for the neon and use a 3.50 FD ratio transfer shaft and ring gear out of the 523 trans. that would give you a slightly taller ratio which means it loads the turbo harder (heat) and you can stay in each gear longer. i know it works awesome on slightly lighter cars.

Anyone here do that setup in an R/T yet? i would think that it would help.

if you make sure the mounts and suspension bushings are up to snuff and tight and you are making the HP you want, there is no reason why it wont be faster than the bird on nitrous with the R/T without nitrous.

id plan on running 25psi with alky injection. you wont miss the nitrous.

Brian

[cordes]

Sean, save your cash on the bottom end. you dont need exotic stuff unless you are going for 1000hp like the SMP charger. He is the only one that makes the custom 4 bolt mains IIRC. 2 bolt (all stock blocks) is plenty for what you want. how many miles are on the engine now? if its high, id do a stock rebuild. at the most, a set of pistons. you can do that for under 1500$.

im also a little leery of the XSpower and the SSautochrome stuff. they really make some garbage parts sometimes or at least they have in the past. a 3 T2 stock core cooler is what larry was using. id check on ebay for thunderbird SC intercooler cores and have them welded up. or get two SRT coolers and put them one on top of the other and change the end tanks slightly. that will be more than enough flow. the SRT stage 3 makes 360whp with one of them.

when you rebuild the trans, you might want to look into the quaife for the neon and use a 3.50 FD ratio transfer shaft and ring gear out of the 523 trans. that would give you a slightly taller ratio which means it loads the turbo harder (heat) and you can stay in each gear longer. i know it works awesome on slightly lighter cars.

Anyone here do that setup in an R/T yet? i would think that it would help.

if you make sure the mounts and suspension bushings are up to snuff and tight and you are making the HP you want, there is no reason why it wont be faster than the bird on nitrous with the R/T without nitrous.

id plan on running 25psi with alky injection. you wont miss the nitrous.

Brian

With a done up TIII, I would definatly think that he could take serious advantage of the 3.50FD. Heck, I wish I had a 3.50 in my shadow again, of course the shadow is lighter.

[1FastCSX289]

What is the stock final drive ratio on the R/T?

Let me get this straight......you take the transfer shaft from what? And then you use a stock A520 ring gear? Is the Quaife for a neon different than the one for the A568?

Interesting stuff guys. This is what I need.......keep it coming

Oh, and the car already has a 2.5 Catco and 2.5 mandrel exhaust (FWD) from the CAT back. I will probably be tossing this huh? Or could I just add a 3 inch down pipe and get away with it?

[cordes]

I believe that you will need the input shaft and pinion gear from a 523 for the hybrid trans. The FD of the 91 568 if 3.85 IIRC. It should say on the tag which is located on the top of the trans.

It is a shame, but I would go 3" all the way on your setup. Try to sell the old exh. in the exchange.

[86Shelby]

I have the same T3/T4 hybrid turbo mentioned above. I love it! Great spool up and will allow plenty of power.

For the exhaust you can leave the 2.5" cat back part but I would go with a 3" downpipe with a cutout. The 2.5" will flow plenty for day to day driving, yet with the 3" and cutout you can have all the flow you would want. I'm running a 3" mandrel bent system with a cutout. The downpipe start out as 2.75", then expands to 3" after 8" or so. Not enough room on the swingvalve assembly to weld 3" pipe to it.

The intercooler I am running is the Spearco unit FWDP sells. I'll see if I can get a pic up of the installation.

My car was able to put a little over 330 hp to the wheels at 24 psi. The bottom end had roughly 185k miles on it at that time. The ring seal wasn't exactly ideal to say the least. I don't forsee any problems being able to get close to or over 400 with the fresh shortblock coming this winter.

I'm not sure how the lower FD would work in a heavy R/T. The turbo may spool quicker, but with the taller tires there to begin with it might actually hurt overall performance a bit. I like the stock gearing for the most part. and to swap the FD, you need the intermediate shaft(counter shaft, or cluster shaft) and differential from a same year 523. A Neon Quiaffe may work with the 523 diff, can't remember offhand.

EDIT: found and uploaded pics!

[Aries_Turbo]

R/T 568 has a 3.85 FD.

some (not all) 523's have a 3.50FD ring gear and the transfer (intermediate?) shaft that must be kept as a pair. you want to find a same year as your car, 523 trans with the 3.50 FD as labled on the trans tag.

568 quaifes are different than the 520/523/neon quaife

Brian

[1FastCSX289]

I have the same T3/T4 hybrid turbo mentioned above. I love it! Great spool up and will allow plenty of power.

For the exhaust you can leave the 2.5" cat back part but I would go with a 3" downpipe with a cutout. The 2.5" will flow plenty for day to day driving, yet with the 3" and cutout you can have all the flow you would want. I'm running a 3" mandrel bent system with a cutout. The downpipe start out as 2.75", then expands to 3" after 8" or so. Not enough room on the swingvalve assembly to weld 3" pipe to it.

The intercooler I am running is the Spearco unit FWDP sells. I'll see if I can get a pic up of the installation.

My car was able to put a little over 330 hp to the wheels at 24 psi. The bottom end had roughly 185k miles on it at that time. The ring seal wasn't exactly ideal to say the least. I don't forsee any problems being able to get close to or over 400 with the fresh shortblock coming this winter.

I'm not sure how the lower FD would work in a heavy R/T. The turbo may spool quicker, but with the taller tires there to begin with it might actually hurt overall performance a bit. I like the stock gearing for the most part. and to swap the FD, you need the intermediate shaft(counter shaft, or cluster shaft) and differential from a same year 523. A Neon Quiaffe may work with the 523 diff, can't remember offhand.

EDIT: found and uploaded pics!

Sweet car man. Mine has about the same mileage, although the previous owner says it was rebuilt about 80k miles ago. Who knows though. Im not going to be as brave as you......I think I will wait for the rebuild before I put some power to it!

Is that 24 PSI computer controlled or are you running an MBC? What cal are you running?

[cordes]

R/T 568 has a 3.85 FD.

some (not all) 523's have a 3.50FD ring gear and the transfer (intermediate?) shaft that must be kept as a pair. you want to find a same year as your car, 523 trans with the 3.50 FD as labled on the trans tag.

568 quaifes are different than the 520/523/neon quaife

Brian

Supposedly the 90' turbo trans is the 523 with the 3.50FD. I know my 90' shadow had one.

I thought that the Quaife was the same unit, but that you had to use the ring gear out of a 523 regardless due to the fact that the 568 diff has the integral ring gear?

[86Shelby]

Im not going to be as brave as you......I think I will wait for the rebuild before I put some power to it!
Is that 24 PSI computer controlled or are you running an MBC? What cal are you running?

Thanks for the compliment! I don't consider myself too brave for putting down that kind of power since I bought the car with all the mods done to it already. I consider myself brave for driving it to SDAC 15, 1,600 miles all said and done, after owning it for 5 days!
The calibration is a FWDP stage II. The boost controller is a GReddy Type S electronic dual stage; it even has a little 'ricetastic' wireless switch which goes on the steering wheel to change boost levels(high and low) on the fly.

[TurboGLH]

What is the stock final drive ratio on the R/T?

Let me get this straight......you take the transfer shaft from what? And then you use a stock A520 ring gear? Is the Quaife for a neon different than the one for the A568?

Interesting stuff guys. This is what I need.......keep it coming

Oh, and the car already has a 2.5 Catco and 2.5 mandrel exhaust (FWD) from the CAT back. I will probably be tossing this huh? Or could I just add a 3 inch down pipe and get away with it?

Here's an FAQ I put together on building a Hybrid trans. Check it out.

http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105

[1FastCSX289]

Nice write up. So, if I understand correctly, the only main shaft and ring gear/ carrier I can use it from a 91 A523?

Also, what is the difference between the phantom grip and quaife or OBX? Why is the phantom grip so much cheaper? And, what is the general consensus on the OBX?

[8valves]

Phantom Grips are a waste of your money, period.

Quaiffe's are excellent and you pay for it, as well as a lifetime warranty.

OBX's are a knockoff of teh Quaiffe's and have proven themselves in the Honda world to take on 10 second passes. Granted that's with less torque load and a lighter car, but trust me, they are under some serious abuse by some of these guys. I'd say it's a pretty decent compromise in price and performance.

Boyd (uglyoldomni.com) just switched to an OBX diff and has yet to have any issues. His is a high torque and HP 2.5 setup as well.

Aaron Miller

[fleckster]

I have the Alabama Man insert in my LeBaron and I like it. Too bad it's an Automatic and doesn't work too well if you want to have the valve body fully automatic. I think it is set up more specific for our cars. I can't speak about the Phantom Grip as I have never tried one. I also can't speak about the Quaife since my SRT-4 is an '03 and didn't come with one.

[csxtra]

If this is going to be a street car with A/C, I'd be leary of the 3.50 final drive in a car that heavy with a 2.2. Yeah, I know it's a 16v, but off-boost with the taller final drive would be horrible, especially if a laggier turbo is added to the mix.

Rule of thumb on the 3.50 final drive swap - 2.5s and/or light cars love them. 2.2 Daytonas or heavier will be dogs if street driven, especially with A/C. I don't know if anybody has tried one on a heavy 16V car yet.

Hope this helps,
Warren

[slasky]

I have the phantom grip extreme in my charger. It came in the 555 that I bought from FWD. It seems to work well in my car. After about 2000 miles my car still spins both wheels.