2.2 / 2.5 Diesel conversion?

[Turbodave]

So, with gas prices what they are and everything and my love for the 2.2 2.5 engines the thought went through my head that it would really cool to have a turbo-diesel minivan for a daily driver. I'm thinking a 200hp, 500ft/lb 2.2 hooked to the A568 that's in there. Something that can give me 40mpg, tow a dolley with a car on it and run 14's (is that asking too much )

Anyhow, I have faith in the lower end on our engines and I think one setup with a forged crank, high compression pistons and what not could handle the power. My concerns would probably be mostly with the head gasket and the increased cylinder pressures. But even that I think cold be handled with o-rings and cometic gasket. Hopefully the lower EGT's of a diesel would be easier on things than our gas engines.

As far as fuel delivery I was thinking of pirating a pump and injector setup off a 4cyl vw diesel. I'm also thinking the spark plug holes could be adapted for glow plugs.

Any thoughts on this, feel free to tell me I'm crazy, and I probably will never get any further with this idea than just posting it here, but it's come to mind a few times and just wanted to get it out there...

[88_pacifica]

I would question the reliability of our blocks. They aren't deisgned for that kind of stress and the flexing would be ungodly. Mandatory would be 4 bolt mains, beefed up rods, and then, as you said the head would be a possible issue. Plus, being an aluminum head it would be MUCH more prone to warping, as most diesels I've seen have cast iron heads.

Rather than convert to a diesel, I would be more inclined to figure out a way to do a conversion to the fuel system and find a way to modify it's needs, if you are concerned with fuel prices.

I myself would focus on trying to eliminate as many frictional losses as I can. This is where modern motors differ from our motors. Economically, this is where they excel. Other than the crappy trans's we have, I would think we could make them more "efficient" over all. Add this to a good port and polish to reduce hotspots, run a higher t-stat, and then reduce the rolling resistance(wheel bearings, tire pressure, etc). MPGMike is well known for his high mpg heads so I would start by talking to him. I know there is quite a debate over the "power linz" but if the results justify the cost then, there you go. The toe-in of the tires for example, can affect mileage BIG TIME.

[Turbodave]

I would question the reliability of our blocks. They aren't deisgned for that kind of stress and the flexing would be ungodly. Mandatory would be 4 bolt mains, beefed up rods, and then, as you said the head would be a possible issue. Plus, being an aluminum head it would be MUCH more prone to warping, as most diesels I've seen have cast iron heads.

Rather than convert to a diesel, I would be more inclined to figure out a way to do a conversion to the fuel system and find a way to modify it's needs, if you are concerned with fuel prices.

I myself would focus on trying to eliminate as many frictional losses as I can. This is where modern motors differ from our motors. Economically, this is where they excel. Other than the crappy trans's we have, I would think we could make them more "efficient" over all. Add this to a good port and polish to reduce hotspots, run a higher t-stat, and then reduce the rolling resistance(wheel bearings, tire pressure, etc). The toe-in of the tires can affect mileage BIG TIME.

I understand the ideas behind getting more mileage out of a gasoline engine, and that is certainly the logical way to go for a guaranteed improvement, but I was primarily running the diesel idea through my head and trying to come up with better reasons why it can't be done. Trying to throw logic and reason out the window for a moment (I call this getting in touch with my feminine side).

I wonder about the 2.2 diesel that comes in the euro PT cruisers and Caravans? Also what about the VW diesels, do they still use an iron head?

[MiniMopar]

I've had similar thoughts, but I was thinking more along the lines of an older 4-cyl diesel adapted for our cars in the usual ways. Older because they are simpler (though less efficient), which means there is a better chance of actually getting it to work. I know Nissan put small diesels in their mini-trucks in the 80s. Then theres Volvo and the other usual European suspects (not sure how reliable those are).

I've had fantasies of a Rampage running on biodiesel made from the oil from the mexican restaurant at the end of my block.

[Turbodave]

I've had fantasies of a Rampage running on biodiesel made from the oil from the mexican restaurant at the end of my block.

I was even eyeballing a diesel VW pickup that I saw for sale, but a diesel Rampage with a plow light and a class III hitch running on spent burrito juice would be awesome.

[88_pacifica]

I understand the ideas behind getting more mileage out of a gasoline engine, and that is certainly the logical way to go for a guaranteed improvement, but I was primarily running the diesel idea through my head and trying to come up with better reasons why it can't be done. Trying to throw logic and reason out the window for a moment (I call this getting in touch with my feminine side).

I wonder about the 2.2 diesel that comes in the euro PT cruisers and Caravans? Also what about the VW diesels, do they still use an iron head?

Actually, I would think that if the block and head could handle the stress, you could "find" internals that could handle the power. I have often wondered if the diesels would be that reliable since our cars have a multitude of other issues already. I would be concerned about the torque f-in up the frame/body since you are now focusing on tq vs hp... then there's the whole tranny thing...

But, if you were to put in a totally different drivetrain... it would be sweet, but $$ since you'd probably need all kinds of special stuff to make it work(shortened CV's, etc)

[Turbodave]

Actually, I would think that if the block and head could handle the stress, you could "find" internals that could handle the power. I have often wondered if the diesels would be that reliable since our cars have a multitude of other issues already. I would be concerned about the torque f-in up the frame/body since you are now focusing on tq vs hp... then there's the whole tranny thing...

But, if you were to put in a totally different drivetrain... it would be sweet, but $$ since you'd probably need all kinds of special stuff to make it work(shortened CV's, etc)

So I'm thinking a diesel converted tall deck 2.5 with a fel-pro headgasket bolted to a 525 trans modified for AWD with a caravan setup, that should make some cool sparks once it goes...lol..

We're swapping 2.4's in these car pretty easily, so I imagine that it wouldn't be too bad to swap in the european 2.2 diesel in the same manner if you could get ahold of one.

[88_pacifica]

So I'm thinking a diesel converted tall deck 2.5 with a fel-pro headgasket bolted to a 525 trans modified for AWD with a caravan setup, that should make some cool sparks once it goes...lol...

Ha.. yeah right... I'll say the same thing everybody else does on here...


and I quote: "Try it and let us know if it works... "

[contraption22]

I'm gonna try to get in touch with Jon Genesky. A couple years ago he said he had a nighbor with a Rampage powered by a VW TDI engine.

[mcsvt]

^^ I was just thinking that Mike. I remember seeing pictures of it.

Those motors are pretty strong. Using VW lingo, all you have to do is "chip"

[RoadWarrior222]

There was a Mitsu diesel that seemed to fit the same applications as the 2.6 Mitsu. However, those appear to be RWD only. I did have hopes that one would mate to an A470 but these appear to be dashed. I'm thinking that given a sufficient selection of FWD and RWD 2.6 parts plus a mitsu diesel, that it might be relatively straightforward to cobble something together. However, mileage projections seem to put it about the same as a well tuned 2.5 with a 5 speed for highway, be a lot better in the city.

Something that can give me 40mpg, tow a dolley with a car on it and run 14's (is that asking too much )

I'm shooting for this with my long term minivan project. However, I'm doing it with the V6 3.0 mitsu. It appears 30mpg and 14s would be fairly easy with known tricks (High compression, improved breathing, synthetics, parasitic drag reduction). Then there's additional tricks to throw at it, aerodynamic cleanup and a DOD scheme that I figure may let me see 40mpg highway.

[turbovanman²]

Well theres no way our blocks, cranks could handle it, ever heard of a GM diesel called the 350? that was a gasser engine slightly modded to run as a diesel, it was a complete and utter failure.
Aluminium heads are not an issue, the old VW's were alu heads and alot of newer diesels run them now, ala GM's Dmax to name one.

I would find a diesel powerplant and throw it in, would be cheaper, easier and more reliable in the long run. Didn't some European Dodge Minivans get diesels????

Dave, why do you think I am going TIII 2.5L, I figure I can make some nice torque and knock back 30+ mpg if I keep my foot out of it. I know I can do it when I go standalone next year,

[RoadWarrior222]

The other other way to do it is a new Kubota industrial diesel, an electric forklift motor or two and some batteries, roll your own diesel hybrid. You'd want about 30-40HP to cruise the van plus trailer on the diesel motor alone. Then however much HP worth of 'lectric motors you want for acceleration.

[rbryant]

I looked into this for a charger a while back. I think the VW diesels share a lot of the engine mounting position with the old VW 1.8 which is basically the same as our VW 1.7l.

I would have to look at the family a bit more but the VW 1.9 TDI would be nice if it actually bolted to the old 465 tranny (if it could be build strong enough). It might just fit into our cars with mostly wiring work left over.

-Rich

[RoadWarrior222]

I was just off researching what made the olds diesels a flop, seems like a combination of factors, weak headbolts, poor servicing and unfamiliarity by mechanics seems to have made 'em into a bit of a "perfect storm". It would seem to me that a later mid 80s olds diesel, with a diesel spec oil in it, and not molested by incompetent mechanics should hold up pretty well. The bearings often got burned by people putting only gasoline spec oil in them. The headbolts stretch and allow HG failure, head warpage etc, some mechanics skimmed the head and put back the original bolts... resulting in failure again within weeks.... now there's an ARP upgraded headbolt kit available. Anyhoo, with those points in mind, then it may be possible to use a 15:1 - 20:1 2.5 motor built as if it was normal compression and going to be boosted over 1 bar (14psi-ish) as a diesel motor, provided similar precautions are taken with it, diesel spec oil to spare the bearings, very good head bolts and HG etc. However, this would have it as an N/A diesel motor and it would probably only make about 80 HP, and I doubt you could turbo it on top of that.

Looking up olds diesel stuff, I never realised there was also a V6 before, now, bearing in mind it's weak spots and that '84, 85, 86 motors are likely to be better fettled, one of those might be a candidate to put in a body that has room for the 3.3 or 3.8 chrysler V6. There was apparently a FWD version, maybe only 1 year, '85 or '86, unfortunately designated the LS2 which is also a V8, hence hard to dig out info on. However, I doubt that one is up to turbocharging either.

Anyhoo, there would still be a lot of stuff to figure out, and I doubt you'd get much further than having a driveable testbed, rather than a motor for a DD.

[shadow88]

I remember seeing a video on putfile?....maybe? It showed some guy with a caravan, running a VW deisel claiming over 1500 kms per tank and it ran and the whole bit.

I also remember the video being kind of grainy, but it appeared to have Ontario plates on it.

Diesel powered 2.2l family of engines seems like a truely futile effort to me simply on the fabrication required to make the thing run efficiently on diesel.

EDIT Video links. The second one has it running, the first one shows a brief how-to.


running

[cordes]

I was even eyeballing a diesel VW pickup that I saw for sale, but a diesel Rampage with a plow light and a class III hitch running on spent burrito juice would be awesome.

That is some serious sig line material there.

[WickedShelby88]

Hmm what about the escort diesel. Those things were kinda peppy, very simple, mated to a 5 speed, and would keep going long past the cheap steel of the body would last.

[iniviate]

look into old bread vans some of those came with a cummins 4bt (4 cylinder version of the truck engine) with an adapter going to a GM bellhousing pattern.

[Aries_Turbo]

i dont know why those say it wont work. the VW TDI isnt much of a departure from the regular gas engine and it works just fine. use a 2.5L or 2.2L T2 commonblock and some flat top or domed pistons with a shaved head and the VW injection pump setup and it should work well. to replace the glowplugs you can use an inline intake heater setup like some of the newer diesels. that way the injectors go in the cyl (do they do this stock on the VW diesel?).

can you put the 555 internals in the 465 case? or a combo of 555/525 stuff in there?

Brian